Thanks to both of you. I may make a batch of blades and send them to him for heat treat. They're a doddle compared to a long knife, but to even attempt to get them up to high hardness in the open atmosphere is beyond even my limits of screwing around.
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1095 Cro-Van and 50-110B Types of Steel
- Thread starter D-weaver
- Start date
Thanks to both of you. I may make a batch of blades and send them to him for heat treat. They're a doddle compared to a long knife, but to even attempt to get them up to high hardness in the open atmosphere is beyond even my limits of screwing around.
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I have a budy that mentioned he talked to jt about doing some aebl for him. He said he ended up referring him to someone else. Which I found odd. Idk the whole conversation he had with him though.
I'm thinking maybe he was asking if he would straighten any potential warps that occur during the ht of aebl? Because he said he didn't feel comfortable doing whatever he was asking of him. (And if he was talking about straightening someone else's blade I totally understand why he wouldn't want to do that). Either way everyone that I've heard talk about him says good stuff.
I'm thinking maybe he was asking if he would straighten any potential warps that occur during the ht of aebl? Because he said he didn't feel comfortable doing whatever he was asking of him. (And if he was talking about straightening someone else's blade I totally understand why he wouldn't want to do that). Either way everyone that I've heard talk about him says good stuff.
Stuart Davenport Knives
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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And just to add about some steel options that might be suited to you, take a look at DIN 1.2519, 1.2419, 1.2442, and maybe to some extent 1.2562. They are available from Germany/Austria. Just takes a little research to find them. Shipping isn't too terribly bad, either.
D-Weaver (I keep thinking of Wayne's World), you mentioned on another thread about XHP. That is not a steel I think would work well in woodworking chisels/irons or straight razors. It's like a more stainless CPM D2. Same with S30VN and it's variants either. Need a finer structure than even with what a PM steel can offer. Sharpening becomes a factor as well. I was always curious about PMV-11. By the name, I thought it would be akin to CPM10V (another steel I wouldn't think would fit woodworking very well, but ask me how it is processing game at 65HRC!!!). PM (partical metallurgy) V (vanadium) 11 (as in, Spinal Tap....these go to 11)
I think AEBL at 62HRC would absolutely excel at woodworking/push cutting/sharpenability. I mean, it was created for the razor industry after all. I heat treat it at 62HRC for any knife I am making, but I tend to use AEBL for kitchen cutlery. For much the same reasons White steel, Blue steel, 52100 are used. Very fine grain, very fine carbide array, 62-63HRC is plenty hard, easy to sharpen. Come to think of it, I don't recall ever tempering any steel below 60-61HRC.
D-Weaver (I keep thinking of Wayne's World), you mentioned on another thread about XHP. That is not a steel I think would work well in woodworking chisels/irons or straight razors. It's like a more stainless CPM D2. Same with S30VN and it's variants either. Need a finer structure than even with what a PM steel can offer. Sharpening becomes a factor as well. I was always curious about PMV-11. By the name, I thought it would be akin to CPM10V (another steel I wouldn't think would fit woodworking very well, but ask me how it is processing game at 65HRC!!!). PM (partical metallurgy) V (vanadium) 11 (as in, Spinal Tap....these go to 11)
I think AEBL at 62HRC would absolutely excel at woodworking/push cutting/sharpenability. I mean, it was created for the razor industry after all. I heat treat it at 62HRC for any knife I am making, but I tend to use AEBL for kitchen cutlery. For much the same reasons White steel, Blue steel, 52100 are used. Very fine grain, very fine carbide array, 62-63HRC is plenty hard, easy to sharpen. Come to think of it, I don't recall ever tempering any steel below 60-61HRC.
And just to add about some steel options that might be suited to you, take a look at DIN 1.2519, 1.2419, 1.2442, and maybe to some extent 1.2562. They are available from Germany/Austria. Just takes a little research to find them. Shipping isn't too terribly bad, either.
D-Weaver (I keep thinking of Wayne's World), you mentioned on another thread about XHP. That is not a steel I think would work well in woodworking chisels/irons or straight razors. It's like a more stainless CPM D2. Same with S30VN and it's variants either. Need a finer structure than even with what a PM steel can offer. Sharpening becomes a factor as well. I was always curious about PMV-11. By the name, I thought it would be akin to CPM10V (another steel I wouldn't think would fit woodworking very well, but ask me how it is processing game at 65HRC!!!). PM (partical metallurgy) V (vanadium) 11 (as in, Spinal Tap....these go to 11)
I think AEBL at 62HRC would absolutely excel at woodworking/push cutting/sharpenability. I mean, it was created for the razor industry after all. I heat treat it at 62HRC for any knife I am making, but I tend to use AEBL for kitchen cutlery. For much the same reasons White steel, Blue steel, 52100 are used. Very fine grain, very fine carbide array, 62-63HRC is plenty hard, easy to sharpen. Come to think of it, I don't recall ever tempering any steel below 60-61HRC.
Two different people, at least, XRFed it. When I first heard of XHP from the mention of the XRF results, I bought a bar, heated it really hot quicky (look away devin) and it was fine for plane irons and OK for knives. I rarely use it but started to think if I'm not dissolving chromium then it maybe would harden fine at a lower temperature - that doesn't work it lands OK for a knife, but more like the feel of the harder friodur knives and not chisel hard.
Your reference is correct - they were making a spinal tap joke, but were very mum about what the steel was. I think it came out around 2012 or 2011 or something in their tools - it makes a smooth working plane iron and most of the woodworking community is amateurs. I'm an amateur, but not quite the same thing (which you can see by the array of pictures and looking at historical stuff and solving kind of what things were....like "why didn't any of the razors get made out of super steel, etc". 150 razors later, I have a pretty good idea why.).
At any rate, the page for the company selling the stuff shows most of the testing being done in MDF. MDF is only as demanding or a little more demanding than the sand cards in the CATRA machine. It's a great expedited abrasion test that's sort of like wood, but nothing illuminates chiseling wood and edge durability like chiseling wood. Sort of like shaving is a good way to tell if a razor blade is good. Shaving for a long time, like 6 months (straight razor, that is).
The guy who is either owner or president or both of the company (Lee) is a good guy, though.
i planed something like 35,000 feet of shavings, weighed them, took pictures of edges of various irons to see if they would chip - none did. I provided the results of the test on a woodworking forum and caught a lot of fire for fanboying XHP (or their variant if they have something minimally different), and then I found later in use in interrupted cuts (like planing rough lumber), it didn't hold up as well, so I published that - and then drew fire from the other side.
(i've looked for din spec steel before, but no luck from a retail side of things - like someone who might buy $500 at a time at most. I'll keep looking. if you'd be willing to harden some AEB-L irons for me, I'd pay - I'm not that picky - I just want it to have good apex strength. there's not much easier than heat treating a plane iron - they are flat and you only have to harden the last two inches of them as the rest is just slotted steel to fit in the plane's adjustment mechanism).
Almost forgot - V11/XHP does have one benefit - a lot of amateur woodworkers sharpen by hand on alumina waterstones - no significant vanadium, no problem. I coached a guy in australia having trouble sharpening a true 10V iron to spend $30 and get a chinese milled steel diamond plate and a vial of 1 micron diamond grit, but he was getting bad advice to just power through it with alumina waterstones and it took a while to convince him that it would be wise to find something that would cut the carbides.... I'd be up for testing 10V in a plane iron, but it doesn't have any practical benefit - it would be a novelty, but I think AEB-L is the candidate for actual practical use in amateur's tools.
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Idk. I think higher carbide steels could do quite well for wood working. At least powder metallurgy vanadium carbide steels specifically, or niobium. As long as there isn't any (or much) of the larger chromium carbides, they can have a relatively fine microstructure. I think cpm 10v with a proper heat treatment for the task could do quite well.And just to add about some steel options that might be suited to you, take a look at DIN 1.2519, 1.2419, 1.2442, and maybe to some extent 1.2562. They are available from Germany/Austria. Just takes a little research to find them. Shipping isn't too terribly bad, either.
D-Weaver (I keep thinking of Wayne's World), you mentioned on another thread about XHP. That is not a steel I think would work well in woodworking chisels/irons or straight razors. It's like a more stainless CPM D2. Same with S30VN and it's variants either. Need a finer structure than even with what a PM steel can offer. Sharpening becomes a factor as well. I was always curious about PMV-11. By the name, I thought it would be akin to CPM10V (another steel I wouldn't think would fit woodworking very well, but ask me how it is processing game at 65HRC!!!). PM (partical metallurgy) V (vanadium) 11 (as in, Spinal Tap....these go to 11)
I think AEBL at 62HRC would absolutely excel at woodworking/push cutting/sharpenability. I mean, it was created for the razor industry after all. I heat treat it at 62HRC for any knife I am making, but I tend to use AEBL for kitchen cutlery. For much the same reasons White steel, Blue steel, 52100 are used. Very fine grain, very fine carbide array, 62-63HRC is plenty hard, easy to sharpen. Come to think of it, I don't recall ever tempering any steel below 60-61HRC.
Like you mentioned though. Sharpening a cpm 10v chisel... I wouldn't want to get stuck doing that. Especially if I have to flatten the back of one that was hastily made.
it's not really a problem with diamonds and grinding the tools with a CBN wheel. The issue is that whatever damages plane irons in use kind of gets everything. XHP is OK as a plane iron, but if it's in an ideal situation where it can take advantage of its abrasion resistance, it soon runs over something.
For reasons that I don't know, older irons that I have made by ward and payne will plane knots and take less damage than anything newer. It could be the plane they're set up in (taking a deeper cut), but there's sort of a "fair bargain" in woodworking. You have to sharpen out wear, and if the steel is twice as abrasion resistant, it takes about twice as long physically, and there are a lot of situations where you'd really like having a fresh edge just as part of the regular sharpening cycle.
the other side of it is really getting them for a price woodworkers would pay ("super steels", whatever you want to call the vanadium and niobium steels), and picking a good temper and then having - a heat treater - execute it with enough care to really have a good fine edge.
I'm a bit suspicious about their practicality after using M2, 10V, M4 and 3V. Hand planing if you do it from rough to finished lumber is kind of a complex subject. It's trivial if you do it, but very few people work wood from rough.
At the cost for me to either get stock and buy a furnace (but a bigger deal, cost in time - the cost of a furnace and experimenting isn't that big of a problem except for the time commitment), I've kind of soured on chasing super steels in woodworking tools because they don't do much of anything in the context of work.
They could be wildly popular with newbies to woodworking, though - sharpening seems to vex everyone new and the knee jerk reaction is to try to find something that lasts longer rather than trying to get faster at sharpening. there is a rhythm to the whole cycle just like a good knifemaker would probably have a rhythm to their work once they become accomplished.
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If you were going to seriously look at anything with a higher volume of vanadium carbide, or honestly anything more complex than the steels this thread was originally about. It would definitely be worth it to get the kiln. I get that you dont want to spend the time, but I'm saying theoretically if you did.
Just because I highly suspect there could be a lot of variables that can go into getting a good blade for a plane or chisel besides just the make up of the steel. And unless you are doing the heat treating yourself, and honestly probably rockwell testing them at the very least. You wont know what the reason for a steels good, or bad perfomance is.
Obviously getting micrographs of everything, as well as rockwell testing. then doing whatever other testing you would do. Then trying these different steels with different heat testing protocols would be the only real way to say. This steel isn't good for this task.
You could say this steel, in this plane or chisel, by x company isn't good for woodworking, but that doesn't mean that the same steel with a different ht or geometry couldn't perform much better.
I agree with you. Anything more than a small amount of vanadium is off the menu for tools. Without an evenheat or something, I have no way to deal with vanadium, but I also don't really care for it in tools.
As far as geometry goes, the things you can do to accommodate knives aren't really available in tools.
Whatever thread I put those chisel pictures in, the whole thing with chisels is people always want them to penetrate better, and they'll chase lower angles where even fine grained steels won't have edge stability. And they'll disregard hardness at the same time and figure everything is the same and this or that spec is just a marketing sham.
Around 34/35 degrees, chisels start to bounce in the cut instead of penetrating easily, so everyone is always trying to cheat a little bit. I modified the edge profile on my tools (chisels at least) to have a lower grind and secondary bevel (low 20s total angle) and then buff the tip just on one side. The back side of the chisel generally defines where the chisel is going, so it stays flat, or in some cases with carving tools may be slightly modified.
Since chisels are really a matter of edge stability and not abrasion resistance, vanadium has nothing to offer. You can see the crispness of the tip here, and why a deflecting edge (higher hardness but high toughness still) would be a problem - it's going to change the edge geometry going into wood. The failure always starts at the apex, so instead of modifying a whole bunch of the edge, I want steel that's going to be ideal being pushed or hammered directly into wood in terms of holding up in this last little bit.
Carvers who buff tools already so this kind of edge modification and it's the same thing that a linen razor strop would do, though linen does it on a much smaller scale. The linen is the key to a straight razor lasting several hundred shaves, but the edge issue is similar - there's no need for vanadium in the edge, and additional toughness that allows deflection is off the table.
On planes, which are different, like a continuous push cut at an angle with "hammering" into the edge only when the plane is in an interrupted cut, the bedded angle for the cut is generally 45 degrees. That's the flat side of the plane iron. You get then about 35 degrees to work with in terms of total bevel angle, but the apex has to hold up. If you try to use closer to 45 degrees to accommodate coarse carbides, , you lose cut clearance and the iron won't "dig in" to the wood on its own and the whole thing is inaccurate and inefficient. Something like 3V or 4V makes a decent plane iron, as do powder metals, but sharpening time is proportional to abrasive resistance (or worse if the abrasive can't handle carbides - alumina is common for woodworkers to use, or sometimes natural stones). 3V would be better at 61 than 59, but the blades that I was loaned to test were done by Bos (i thought bos retired) and someone at the shop may have taken a small mental vacation and the blades came back at 59. I also had the treat of M4 at 64. it slightly outlasted XHP and sharpened nicely (I used diamonds - finishing at one micron to make sure I could observe something that wasn't just cowboy sharpened with a bunch of half exposed and broken carbides).
At any rate, we're left with XHP outwearing 3V. I didn't get any 4V, and M4 outlasted XHP by about 5% or something. O1 lasted half as long as XHP/M4 roughly, but the wear profile was better in planes, and it's nothing to sharpen. It also gets sharpened more often, so you have a better chance of staying ahead of edge damage caused by dirt or silica in wood, etc, and I didn't observe any difference in that kind of damage other than the harder the steel was, the less deep (a lot like the chisel pictures).
In the case that you get nicking damage, it has to be removed for quality work, and then O1 has the advantage because it's far faster to take 3-4 thousandths off of a plane iron if it's O1 than it is something with vanadium (the grinding has to be accurate, of course, so you can't just walk over to a 36 grit ceramic belt and blast away - otherwise, I would). Once nicking becomes an issue - it's never pleasant to deal with, but sometimes it happens, then the whole abrasion resistance advantage goes out the window and becomes a problem in the other direction.
Not preaching to anyone here, just explaining the constraints and background. The other nice thing about very fine grained steels that are easy to get right is that if the nicking is small enough to ignore, they seem to wear more evenly around it.
This plane test was in clear wood so it was a bit idealized - no interrupted cuts, and it became more like a catra type test and not quite accurate for real world use in all cases. I did find a mineral pocket in maple and it destroyed everything. You can modify the edge of a plane iron with some version of the chisel geometry above, but it won't cut quite as well - you trade a slight drop in performance for the fact that it will actually continue to work.
Pictures (intentionally linked so they don't overwhelm this thread):
A2 - worn (61/62 hardness)
chinese HSS - not quite M2, but almost (65 hardness)
V11 - Probably XHP around 63 hardness
blue steel (65 hardness)
O1 - about 62 hardness
3v - 59 hardness
m4 - 64 hardness
Pictures of damage - of course, when I found something that would damage an iron, instead of just getting rid of it, I planed through it with all of the irons to see how deep the damage would be. And if anything would ignore it (geometry is far more important than alloy, I found out later, but the constraint of 35 degrees more or less for a plane iron didn't allow for much adjustment).
3v
V11 (XHP) damage
Unfortunately, I can't find the blue #1 steel damage picture, but it was slightly less deep.
Blue 1 was a disappointment as word of mouth is always "japanese steels are finer grained than anything else". This isn't true, of course, but every blue or super blue iron that I've had shows minor nicking. The finish of the iron above (blue steel, 65 hardness) didn't cause large visible defects, but it actually left a duller wood surface. Everyone wanted to make excuses for whatever their favorite steel was, but after doing this test, someone later pointed me to larrin's tests and posts on blue steel (I did this before that was up).
I was super pleased to see the CATRA results matching the durability that I saw (how many feet of wood double checked by making sure the feet and weight of wood planed off were proportional), and then pleased doubly more to see the micrographs of blue steel, because I got a lot of grief from people claiming that they never see it in blue steel. None of the people who were loud about that were actually serious woodworkers - they don't find that kind of thing because they're not looking.
So, that's some background.
There was one other side oddity - M4 and 3V both planed good distances (1.65 times further than O1 for 3V, and a little over 2 for M4) -but they created a lot more physical resistance while planing. Uncanny. I expected the planest steels to "feel the sharpest" (have the lowest effort) but V11 actually had less effort and left the brightest surface. it just starts to have trouble keeping a nick free edge in real day to day work, and for some reason, O1 doesn't. Given they're close to each other in toughness, I don't know what's causing that. The blue steel iron also does a good job of taking on less nicking - why? I don't know. It's the same hardness as the chinese iron. All of the irons except the O1 iron were hardness tested - I made the O1 iron and later tested it against a commercial iron that's common among woodworkers (Hock). It lasted slightly longer due to an oddity - the commercial O1 iron is chasing super high hardness for O1 and the initial edge fails a little, wears off and then it settles in. It just needs to be tempered back a few points, but the maker isn't a woodworker, so he doesn't believe it.
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This is all in regard to basically hand woodwork for furniture and cabinets. Site work and timberwork are different and often done in softer woods, abusive conditions (site work - thus a lot of hardware store chisels are more like 5160 - anyone could use them to pry anything at any time). Folks in the knife community here are far more likely to encounter someone wanting large architectural chisels for timberframing than cabinetmakers.
This may also provide some background about why my questions are so specific rather than more wide open like they might be for knives. Before I'd venture into steels with more vanadium, I'd have to see some outcome where they are better. The extra planing resistance of 3V and M4 despite sharpening all with 1 micron diamonds on wood was weird - really kind of unpleasant. I've had no luck finding out why because a commercial machine with metal on metal would be oiled and anything that you plug in with a blade isn't going to care about 10 or 20% more mechanical resistance. The resistance from M4 was the most, despite it continuing to plane the longest.
I also do something similar to the chisel modification with knives - job 1 with a sharp knife, avoid damage if it's not going to be a tool that's abused and won't really ever avoid damage in the first place. If you have a high hardness knife, the slight edge modification with a buffer will keep your spouse from nicking the blade by scraping a cutting board with the knife or cutting on a ceramic plate while you gnash your teeth thinking about the edge that you just set up, but it doesn't create any perceived difference in slicing.
All of this testing is also why I'm a little bit dismissive about the chase for toughness or some of the assertions Devin has made about steels that would be better for woodworking, etc. I'm looking for outcomes, but they're not knifemaking outcomes. I need a small menu of steels that I can do well - that's been heller files/26c3 and O1 for a long time. Mastering heat treatment of a whole bunch of steels won't have any benefit that's proportional to tool maintenance - but I'm holding out on AEB-L maybe being useful, and that's one I can't do well in open atmosphere.
1% steels with vanadium and chromium were a request to address issues that I had heat treating 1084 and 1095, but now in the other thread, I've solved those for my purposes. maybe the 1084 would now test 20 ft lbs at a given hardness while a furnace would get it to 35, I don't know, but it's meaningless for woodworking tools once they don't fail in regular use.
Also, I think some of my experimenting with geometry at the edge and behind and how to get the full edge refreshed very quickly - a knife used for months can be completely hand ground on a medium stone and then buffed back to this condition in about 2 minutes without much skill - would be practically useful for knife users, and the buffing to finish eliminates the skill needed to understand burrs and sharpening-induced damage at lower to higher hardness...but, I haven't surveyed the crowd here for people who are doing more than making competition whacking knives. It may really not be that much wanted, and maybe the average knife user isn't as bonkers as I am about completely eliminating damage in slicing knives.
This is all in regard to basically hand woodwork for furniture and cabinets. Site work and timberwork are different and often done in softer woods, abusive conditions (site work - thus a lot of hardware store chisels are more like 5160 - anyone could use them to pry anything at any time). Folks in the knife community here are far more likely to encounter someone wanting large architectural chisels for timberframing than cabinetmakers.
This may also provide some background about why my questions are so specific rather than more wide open like they might be for knives. Before I'd venture into steels with more vanadium, I'd have to see some outcome where they are better. The extra planing resistance of 3V and M4 despite sharpening all with 1 micron diamonds on wood was weird - really kind of unpleasant. I've had no luck finding out why because a commercial machine with metal on metal would be oiled and anything that you plug in with a blade isn't going to care about 10 or 20% more mechanical resistance. The resistance from M4 was the most, despite it continuing to plane the longest.
I also do something similar to the chisel modification with knives - job 1 with a sharp knife, avoid damage if it's not going to be a tool that's abused and won't really ever avoid damage in the first place. If you have a high hardness knife, the slight edge modification with a buffer will keep your spouse from nicking the blade by scraping a cutting board with the knife or cutting on a ceramic plate while you gnash your teeth thinking about the edge that you just set up, but it doesn't create any perceived difference in slicing.
All of this testing is also why I'm a little bit dismissive about the chase for toughness or some of the assertions Devin has made about steels that would be better for woodworking, etc. I'm looking for outcomes, but they're not knifemaking outcomes. I need a small menu of steels that I can do well - that's been heller files/26c3 and O1 for a long time. Mastering heat treatment of a whole bunch of steels won't have any benefit that's proportional to tool maintenance - but I'm holding out on AEB-L maybe being useful, and that's one I can't do well in open atmosphere.
1% steels with vanadium and chromium were a request to address issues that I had heat treating 1084 and 1095, but now in the other thread, I've solved those for my purposes. maybe the 1084 would now test 20 ft lbs at a given hardness while a furnace would get it to 35, I don't know, but it's meaningless for woodworking tools once they don't fail in regular use.
Also, I think some of my experimenting with geometry at the edge and behind and how to get the full edge refreshed very quickly - a knife used for months can be completely hand ground on a medium stone and then buffed back to this condition in about 2 minutes without much skill - would be practically useful for knife users, and the buffing to finish eliminates the skill needed to understand burrs and sharpening-induced damage at lower to higher hardness...but, I haven't surveyed the crowd here for people who are doing more than making competition whacking knives. It may really not be that much wanted, and maybe the average knife user isn't as bonkers as I am about completely eliminating damage in slicing knives.
Back to the subject of finding a 1%-ish steel with some chromium or chromium and vanadium. I just made a separate order from usa knifemaker and see in their specs that the 1095 has much more chromium than AKS and it has a not insubstantial addition of nickel.
I can't say I'll remember to return with any comparisons of sensitivity to temperature, but I will be testing that on my own along with seeing if the volume of carbides in a worn matrix increases in those bars vs. the AKS bars, and I'll break some tempered samples to see which are harder to break and confirm that both have similar grain size.
One of the other reasons I never solved my problems with 1095 earlier is there is a sentiment outside of the knife community at least that finding good quality 1095, including in spring steel for things like saws in woodworking, isn't as easy as it used to be. I realize this isn't an accurate comment for someone big enough to afford a melt - that's not most of us.
I also see, but they don't have in stock, W2 that was suggested here , but IIRC, not retailer specific. The W2 is roughly 0.92% carbon in the spec list. If it had been in stock, I'd have ordered it already, though - I'll wait for a notice from them that it's back in stock.
I can't say I'll remember to return with any comparisons of sensitivity to temperature, but I will be testing that on my own along with seeing if the volume of carbides in a worn matrix increases in those bars vs. the AKS bars, and I'll break some tempered samples to see which are harder to break and confirm that both have similar grain size.
One of the other reasons I never solved my problems with 1095 earlier is there is a sentiment outside of the knife community at least that finding good quality 1095, including in spring steel for things like saws in woodworking, isn't as easy as it used to be. I realize this isn't an accurate comment for someone big enough to afford a melt - that's not most of us.
I also see, but they don't have in stock, W2 that was suggested here , but IIRC, not retailer specific. The W2 is roughly 0.92% carbon in the spec list. If it had been in stock, I'd have ordered it already, though - I'll wait for a notice from them that it's back in stock.
Stuart Davenport Knives
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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W2 from USAKnifemaker comes from NJSB. And as far as I know, the ONLY W2 available in the world is the NJSB W2. There is a maker who I really like and comes here to BF from time to time, he has a stash of what he calls "old ass" W2 in round bars. But it is his stash and he isn't turning loose of any of it, and I sure don't blame him!
Just remember that if you get W2 from USAKnifemaker or NJSB, you'll need to give that stuff a very hot normalizing temp. WAY hotter than 1650°F. Unless the shperoidizing issues from that mill in Europe have been resolved, but I don't think they have. I'm not sure what the highest heat you can achieve, but 1900°F is what I heard needed to break up those heavily spheroidized carbides. Forging guys don't notice the hardening problem. Stock removal guys who might simply harden the steel as received, or even normalize at 1650°F, are noticing the as quenched hardness is terrible. But, again, if it's forged or normalized really hot, no problem.
You mentioned on XHP that you "heated it really hot quickly". I'm sure you know this, if not earlier then surely by now, these high alloy steels need a soak at a precise temperature for a given alloy. XHP should get a 25 minute soak at ~1950°F, preferably with a plate/forced air quench, followed by a cold/sub zero/cryo treatment, and then triple tempers. 1850°f is the minimum recommended hardening temp. And it will not "harden fine at a lower temperature". It is those chromium carbides that need to be dissolved to release the carbon that gives you the hardness you need.
Just remember that if you get W2 from USAKnifemaker or NJSB, you'll need to give that stuff a very hot normalizing temp. WAY hotter than 1650°F. Unless the shperoidizing issues from that mill in Europe have been resolved, but I don't think they have. I'm not sure what the highest heat you can achieve, but 1900°F is what I heard needed to break up those heavily spheroidized carbides. Forging guys don't notice the hardening problem. Stock removal guys who might simply harden the steel as received, or even normalize at 1650°F, are noticing the as quenched hardness is terrible. But, again, if it's forged or normalized really hot, no problem.
You mentioned on XHP that you "heated it really hot quickly". I'm sure you know this, if not earlier then surely by now, these high alloy steels need a soak at a precise temperature for a given alloy. XHP should get a 25 minute soak at ~1950°F, preferably with a plate/forced air quench, followed by a cold/sub zero/cryo treatment, and then triple tempers. 1850°f is the minimum recommended hardening temp. And it will not "harden fine at a lower temperature". It is those chromium carbides that need to be dissolved to release the carbon that gives you the hardness you need.
BluntCut MetalWorks
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Your overall plane/chisel requirement: cut quality, efficient, durable, low maintenance cost. Steel and its hardened matrix with average score (0-100 range) of strength and impact toughness -- let's pick 75 where it/threshold could satisfy this requirement.
Thus far, you haven't find a steel offer above 50 (basically at least 1/3 short of goal). And I don't think, you will find such using current ht approach because resulted matrix has strength inverse proportional to toughness.
Perhaps lower your goal to a practical matrix score to around 50 along with low maintenance cost - take existing 62rc O1. Or pursue innovative ht to produces matrix strength & toughness relationship inverse only in 80+ range. e.g. imagine 63rc O1 with 30 Ft-Lbs.
Your overall plane/chisel requirement: cut quality, efficient, durable, low maintenance cost. Steel and its hardened matrix with average score (0-100 range) of strength and impact toughness -- let's pick 75 where it/threshold could satisfy this requirement.
Thus far, you haven't find a steel offer above 50 (basically at least 1/3 short of goal). And I don't think, you will find such using current ht approach because resulted matrix has strength inverse proportional to toughness.
Perhaps lower your goal to a practical matrix score to around 50 along with low maintenance cost - take existing 62rc O1. Or pursue innovative ht to produces matrix strength & toughness relationship inverse only in 80+ range. e.g. imagine 63rc O1 with 30 Ft-Lbs.
I like the way you're thinking - however, I'm focusing on strength at this point without much regard to toughness, until lack of toughness shows to be a problem.
can you give me an example of a steel that is high on strength (as high as 26c3 at 64) but also has good toughness and can be routinely heat treated to get a good combination with fine grain?
can you give me an example of a steel that is high on strength (as high as 26c3 at 64) but also has good toughness and can be routinely heat treated to get a good combination with fine grain?
BluntCut MetalWorks
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What you seek is primarily resistance to deflection (lateral strength), secondary strength is resistance to compressive deformation. While HRC pertains more to compressive/displacement resistance. Strength I mentioned above played a major role in impact toughness, especially when resistance is still within elasticity range. Strength still has role in plasticity range. Strength virtually plays no role in ductile range, unless metal is being drawn into smaller compressive form. Rephrasing my prev post point, in conventional ht strength has inverse proportional to toughness, in other words this strength inhibits material degree of freedom (lowering flow/movement/ductility).
Just looked at apexultra's chart again. I think I'm in the ballpark around 64 hardness, but I haven't generally made chisels tempered much less than 400F.
However, what 26c3 doesn't have for me is wear resistance. Apex ultra is going to have wear resistance (not high maybe for some knife steels, but high relative to woodworking seels) and high hardness with adequate toughness at high hardness, and hopefully fine grain once it's retailed - all in one.
There is a lot of potential there, but only for the cork sniffers (plane irons aren't expensive - so even putting XHP-ish stuff in a plane iron is a bit of a stretch and the company that does it probably isn't pocketing much.
But I am not selling, and I wouldn't bother to ping too many woodworking companies about ability to go up market, rather use it to make custom stuff to just basically give away or trade around.
there's a small group of people who *are* buyers who are constantly whining about japanese steel not being in plane irons, but someone else who wants to sell things would have to market to them high cost low volume (no sense in squeezing margins if the market is tiny).
And the woodworking market in hand tools is a fraction of the knife market, which is a tiny fraction of industrial users by tonnage. If it wasn't, there would be more woodworkers on here asking questions.
However, what 26c3 doesn't have for me is wear resistance. Apex ultra is going to have wear resistance (not high maybe for some knife steels, but high relative to woodworking seels) and high hardness with adequate toughness at high hardness, and hopefully fine grain once it's retailed - all in one.
There is a lot of potential there, but only for the cork sniffers (plane irons aren't expensive - so even putting XHP-ish stuff in a plane iron is a bit of a stretch and the company that does it probably isn't pocketing much.
But I am not selling, and I wouldn't bother to ping too many woodworking companies about ability to go up market, rather use it to make custom stuff to just basically give away or trade around.
there's a small group of people who *are* buyers who are constantly whining about japanese steel not being in plane irons, but someone else who wants to sell things would have to market to them high cost low volume (no sense in squeezing margins if the market is tiny).
And the woodworking market in hand tools is a fraction of the knife market, which is a tiny fraction of industrial users by tonnage. If it wasn't, there would be more woodworkers on here asking questions.
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Theoretically. Why not try rex 121 to really test your strength theory, or maybe maxamet, or zmax?
Send it out to be heat treated, tell them to shoot for above 66hrc minimum. 68 I would say at least or 70 for rex 121.
Honestly. I would be very interested in the resulting chisels.
As far as a hand plane. In theory I think 4v, would do much better than 3v, and be easier to sharpen than m4. At around 64ish Hrc.
Send it out to be heat treated, tell them to shoot for above 66hrc minimum. 68 I would say at least or 70 for rex 121.
Honestly. I would be very interested in the resulting chisels.
As far as a hand plane. In theory I think 4v, would do much better than 3v, and be easier to sharpen than m4. At around 64ish Hrc.