1095 for marking gauge knife

Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
9
Hello all,
I'm new to the forum. I manufacture marking gauges for fine wood working. I am at present using a .050" 1095 spring steel blade laser cut to my dimensions. The heat treating process that I use is take the steel just past demagnitation and quench in peanut oil. I then bake in the oven at 375 degrees for 1 hour. I seem to be getting constant results but I think the blades could be a lot better. My question is am I using the right steel for the job and if so is the heat treating process correct? Any and all help would be appreciated.

Jeff Hamilton
 
Much would depend on your HT equipment. There are better steels, but they require the use of an HT oven, or salt system. D2, A2, even 01, and a few more. You can get better performance out of the 1095 with a better HT. You say you think your blades could be a lot better. What would you like to see improve?
 
Hello LRB,
would just like the blades to hold a little better edge. With a marking gauge we really don't need razor sharp just a sharp edge that will lay down a visable line on the work piece. What I think is happening, I may be bringing the steel back at the wrong temp. MAking the steel to soft.
 
1095 is not the right steel for heat treat with out an oven. There have been many threads about 1095 but in the stickys here is a good thread that explains a bit more about the 3 types of steels http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673173
1095 requires a specific soak time at temp to come to full hardness. If you are only bringing up to non-magnetic and quenching the steel is not going into solution before quench which is why it is not holding an edge. It probably has nothing to do with your tempering. One of the simpler steels would be more suited for this type of HT like 1084 or 1080.
 
Hello Burton,
This is the tool that I make. Could you suggest a steel that I should look at to make this blade?
gauges1%20013.JPG
 
Burton is right on. 1084 would be a good choice. The steels I mentioned would be better, but again, they require an oven. You can HT 1084 without hi-tech equipment, and it will perform better than poorly HTed 1095. Easily.
 
The bottom line is that your steel selection will depend as much on your heat treating capabilities as on your specific application. I think your application could benefit from A-2 or other high-alloy tool steel but if your HT equipment will not provide the precision necessary to heat treat it correctly then it won't do much for you. 1084 is probably your best choice if you have only very simple equipment.
You might get more useable info if you describe your forge/furnace/oven in more detail. Alternately you might choose to use a high-alloy tool steel and have the heat treating done by one of the commercial heat treaters.
 
Those are nice looking marking gauges. Thanks for posting up a pic I was wondering what they looked like. I would stick with 1084 or 1080 if you are going to HT yourself. How are you doing your HT? Another option would be to outsource your HT if you want to work with a more complex steel.
 
Well please don't laugh to hard at me. I use a propane torch to slowly bring the blade up to temp watching for the carbon dots or black specks to appear. At that time I immediately quench in peanut oil moving the blade around slowly until cool. I really thought I had this process down since I could not cut the steel with a smooth cut file. After this I clean the oil off the blade and bake in a toaster oven at 375 degrees for an hour.
 
My question on the commercial heat treaters would have to be would they heat treat such a small blade and would I get consistant hardness. Also do I have to grind the edge before treatment?
 
I can't comment concerning the size of the blades but modern tool steels are engineered specifically for predictable and consitent results in heat treating, provided that the HT is done correctly. So yes, you should get consistent hardness if you choose your alloy and heat treat source correctly. If you want to go all-out you might look into CPM M4 or one of the other CPM alloys which look pretty impressive on the specs.
If the heat treat is done in atmosphere-controlled equipment then you can get very close to final tolerance before heat treat so you can grind your edge bevel before but you may want to leave the edge .020-.010 thick and finish it out afterwards. You don't have to grind it before but some of these steels are hell on abrasives when hardened.
 
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Hey Justin
The problem I'm having is sourcing the steel in the thickness that I need .050" I would gladly change to a tool steel but the smallest thickness I can find is 1/8"
 
http://www.flat-stock.com/ has both O1 and A2 in 3/64.

Peter's Heat Treat would probably do the small blades (he isn't scared by my .048 3V) but you'd probably want to prep several of them: His pricing is $15/blade for the first four then any number up to 20 lbs for the same $60. Sounds like you could get a lifetime supply of those blades in 20 lbs!
 
Alpha Knife Supply has CPM3V in .050 and 52100 in .056, their inventory seems to change regularly so you might contact them and see if they can supply some of the other alloys in your thickness. Some suppliers can also flat grind to spec.
 
1095 should work fine for you.

Try quenching one of your 1095 blades in water. This will give higher hardness to start,
before you temper it. Test it and see.

Are you sure your oven is at 375 and not higher?
 
I'm going to go against all "traditional wisdom" here and suggest something a bit easier, if, somewhat less optimal.

I've had great, I mean really great experiences with very small simple shapes quenched in water. With something this small, cracking and warping just hasn't been a problem.

Also, with the intended use, I can't really see slightly enlarged grains being all that big a deal either.

Why not get the steel hotter, helping to make sure everything goes nicely into soloution, quench in water, then bake at 375 for two hours, twice.

As most of these folks could tell you, the point to soaking the 1095 is to make sure all of the carbon goes nicely into the austenite soloution. The preferred way to do this is to heat the steel until the grain begins to re-form at the previous grain boundaries as it changes into austenite. Then, to soak at that temperature until all of the previous structures have been dissolved. This actually happens a bit hotter than the point at which the magnet stops sticking to the steel, which is one of the reasons you're probably getting results you find sub par.

So, you need to get the steel hotter than simply non-magnetic.

Instead of "soaking" at the proper temperature, you can achive the soloution by heating the steel up a bit more. Don't go nuts with it, or you can burn it, but don't be afraid of the heat either. You'll grow your grains larger than you want to, but for a marking blade, basically a wood scribe, I really don't see this making all that huge a difference. Lots of people will disagree with this approach, and with some good reason. I try to avoid exactly this in most of my own knives too, but the knives I make are typically for a harder use duty, and need some extra resiliance.

Too, lots of people will see the water quench idea and cringe a bit. It's true that you can expect a certain number of them to crack. It's also true that many will have microscopic cracks that you just won't see. However, in very small peices, I've had some really good experiences with water quenching, and it may be worth a try to see if you get the results you're looking for. One or two sacrificial test peices would be enough to let you know if it's going to work out for you.

Double tempering would be a decent idea too. Let the blades cool in between, or even just run them under cold tapwater when they come out of the first. This can help make sure both that any austenite that doesn't transform in the quench goes over, and it will then temper that too. Finally, it can help you experiment a little easier with the right temperature setting for your oven. For example, I do my tempering in my kitchen oven, and have found that I should temper with the oven set at about 25 degrees lower than the "reccomended" temperature, as my particular oven tends to run hot.

No, this soloution is certainly not IDEAL, but it will definitely cover the bases, and if you have found yourself with a backlog of 1095 to treat, and are not happy with the results you're already getting, it could be worth a shot for one or two test peices, to see if it gives you the improvements you're looking for.
 
Dan, I beat ya to the water quench ;) But good post and spot on.

375 is good but your oven may be running hotter. Check it. Try 350 for one hour twice.

Most of the high end jap wood working tools are made from a steel similar to 1095. Bet they are water quenched also.
 
I would like to say a huge Thank You to you all. My tool liturally rides on the edge of this knife. I will give the water quench a try if it don't work I will have to source an outside heat treater.
 
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