1095 quench medium?

"We started selling this steel in 2006. Several knifemakers confused the name 80CrV2 as a steel from China. To eliminate confusion we changed the name to 1080+. At that time and for years afterward, we were the only supplier selling this steel. Other suppliers have followed our lead and are now stocking this steel.This steel is similar to the composition of 1080 with the addition of small amounts of chromium and vanadium. It has tight specifications and is a good steel to use for knives.1080, 1084, 52100, CruForgeV and W2 are shown in the table above for comparison purposes."

Well, I just saw this on the AKS page. Which one is the REAL 80CRV2?
 
Alec Wachtman said:
"We started selling this steel in 2006. Several knifemakers confused the name 80CrV2 as a steel from China. To eliminate confusion we changed the name to 1080+. At that time and for years afterward, we were the only supplier selling this steel. Other suppliers have followed our lead and are now stocking this steel.This steel is similar to the composition of 1080 with the addition of small amounts of chromium and vanadium. It has tight specifications and is a good steel to use for knives.1080, 1084, 52100, CruForgeV and W2 are shown in the table above for comparison purposes."

Well, I just saw this on the AKS page. Which one is the REAL 80CRV2?
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As I understand it, both seem to be the real 80CRV2 as both have the exact same paragraph at the bottom of the page
 
So, as a recap: canola oil will work, but is rather hit or miss. Parks 50 is far more effective at hardening the steel and has a more forgiving quench temp range, right?
 
You're asking questions that don't have simple answers. There are many variables that aren't knowable, in every discussion on this topic, which is why you see many different answers. 1095 is a water quench steel. Parks 50 is near water speed quench oil that sufficiently hardens nearly all hypereutectoid steels, if not all. It's a 7-9 second oil. Heated canola is more like a 9-11 second oil. Many makers use it to quench 1095 with results they find satisfactory. I would say 1095 is the limit in faster quenching steels for canola, and wouldn't quench W2 or any of the other simple carbon steels >1% carbon.

"more forgiving quench temp range" Do you mean the temperature of the oil, or the temperature you quench the steel from? Because one of those the answer is yes, the other points to some possible misunderstanding of heat treating principles.

The "easy answer" is get Parks 50. That's why in nearly every thread of this discussion, multiple people say "Just get Parks 50." It's not the only answer, but it is the only definitive answer.
 
Alec Wachtman said:
"We started selling this steel in 2006. Several knifemakers confused the name 80CrV2 as a steel from China. To eliminate confusion we changed the name to 1080+. At that time and for years afterward, we were the only supplier selling this steel. Other suppliers have followed our lead and are now stocking this steel.This steel is similar to the composition of 1080 with the addition of small amounts of chromium and vanadium. It has tight specifications and is a good steel to use for knives.1080, 1084, 52100, CruForgeV and W2 are shown in the table above for comparison purposes."

Well, I just saw this on the AKS page. Which one is the REAL 80CRV2?
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They are both the REAL 80CrV2. 1080+ was just another name for the same steel. Parks isn’t necessarily more forgiving to quench temperature when we are talking about blade temp, it is more forgiving in the temp of the quench oil itself. Canola oil needs to be in a fairly specific temp window to cool at the desired speed.
 
kuraki said:
You're asking questions that don't have simple answers. There are many variables that aren't knowable, in every discussion on this topic, which is why you see many different answers. 1095 is a water quench steel. Parks 50 is near water speed quench oil that sufficiently hardens nearly all hypereutectoid steels, if not all. It's a 7-9 second oil. Heated canola is more like a 9-11 second oil. Many makers use it to quench 1095 with results they find satisfactory. I would say 1095 is the limit in faster quenching steels for canola, and wouldn't quench W2 or any of the other simple carbon steels >1% carbon.

"more forgiving quench temp range" Do you mean the temperature of the oil, or the temperature you quench the steel from? Because one of those the answer is yes, the other points to some possible misunderstanding of heat treating principles.

The "easy answer" is get Parks 50. That's why in nearly every thread of this discussion, multiple people say "Just get Parks 50." It's not the only answer, but it is the only definitive answer.
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I suppose what I meant was both the steel put in, and the temp of the quenchant. I know that a knife must be at a little past non-magnetic to be hardenable. But in a forge it IS possible to get the temp a few degrees off.
 
Parks 50 has a wider effective range of temperature than canola. While it's possible that quenching from a lower than ideal austenitizing temperature in a faster than normal medium may achieve hardening, it's unlikely to achieve max as quenched hardness. Quenching from higher than ideal aus temp, a faster than required quench may increase the risk of cracking.

Austentizing temperature is alloy specific and different results can be had by minor differences based on the exact chemistry of your heat of steel and the variables in your equipment. This is why everyone will say "This is what I do for that steel but you should do your own testing." Because you should. If your goal is simply to harden enough to pass a file test, the window of acceptable aus temp widens. If your goals begin to include specific traits such as hamon activity, edge stability, or maximum achievable wear resistance, your ability to control and repeat aus temperatures as well as soaking at those temperatures becomes more important, and the window of acceptable temperatures narrows.
 
Ok, I am a new maker that is just starting to think about selling a few blades. I just want a good blade that'll hold an edge and withstand normal abuse. Is there any possibility that this can be attained in a propane forge with some P50 quenchant?
 
Alec Wachtman said:
Ok, I am a new maker that is just starting to think about selling a few blades. I just want a good blade that'll hold an edge and withstand normal abuse. Is there any possibility that this can be attained in a propane forge with some P50 quenchant?
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Yes. With some due diligence in testing and the choices of steel you are making (1084 and 80CRV2).

I'm just trying to help you understand that accomplishing that goal isn't as simple as buying the right things.
 
kuraki said:
Yes. With some due diligence in testing and the choices of steel you are making (1084 and 80CRV2).

I'm just trying to help you understand that accomplishing that goal isn't as simple as buying the right things.
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Thank you! Yes, I understand that I will need to make a few test blades before I can start selling my products. Do you have any tips on hardening?
 
Obtain a stainless steel pipe to use as a muffle in your forge when heat treating.

Get an inexpensive thermocouple and probe to actually measure temperatures in your muffle, at least until you become practiced at recognizing recalescence/decalescence.

Upgrade to a forced air forge when possible for greater control in forge temperature.

Remember that decarb is soft and you need to get through it to evaluate hardening success. Plan to grind at least another .010" of material off every surface after you quench.

Agitate in the quench in the edge/spine direction

Temper soon after the quench in an oven you've verified with your thermocouple to hold accurate temperatures.

Fix warps while tempering by over bending in a jig or with wire and shims in the 2nd temper.
 
Alec Wachtman said:
BTW, really sorry if this is answered in another thread already. There just seemed like too many threads to go through.
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Hi Alec, welcome.

I'm going to be an old crumudgeon here. Do a search using the Bladeforums search engine before asking any questions. If you don't find the answer after putting SOME effort into researching, then ask the question, adding something to the effect of, "I did a search and couldn't find the answer..." Not a comment that it seems to be too much effort to see if the answer was already answered. That'll just reinforce all of us older folks thoughts that youngsters these days are to lazy to put forth any effort...

Welcome and have fun in your knifemaking and forging.

as always
peace and love
billyO
 
weo said:
Hi Alec, welcome.

I'm going to be an old crumudgeon here. Do a search using the Bladeforums search engine before asking any questions. If you don't find the answer after putting SOME effort into researching, then ask the question, adding something to the effect of, "I did a search and couldn't find the answer..." Not a comment that it seems to be too much effort to see if the answer was already answered. That'll just reinforce all of us older folks thoughts that youngsters these days are to lazy to put forth any effort...

Welcome and have fun in your knifemaking and forging.

as always
peace and love
billyO
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Hi!
Yeah, I probably should've phrased that differently. I HAVE actually looked at SOME of the threads on 1095 quenching and the answers seemed confused at best. I'm sure that there was a thread that addressed this question somewhere. I just sort of froze when I saw that there were over 36 pages of threads on this similar topic. I will definitely do a thread search in the future, I generally try to represent my generation in a positive light. I apologize if I have not done so.
 
First you need to think of Knife Making as an "ART" not a given "Science" there is an amount of science dedicated to the ART and heat treating is the Black Magic which is why there are so many different ideas on how its done. Put 10 smiths in a room and get them to agree 100% on heat treating process might happen but there will be debate and perhaps no two methods will be exactly the same each Smith will have a little different tweak on what works best for THEIR process.

Do some reading and pick out similar references to a method and research that method if you need specific information come here armed with what you read and ask a specific question related to the method. A vague question like "How do I heat treat steel" is not specific enough to warrant a definitive answer...

Welcome and enjoy this adventure in the Art of Knife Making!
 
Alec Wachtman said:
Ok, I am a new maker that is just starting to think about selling a few blades. I just want a good blade that'll hold an edge and withstand normal abuse. Is there any possibility that this can be attained in a propane forge with some P50 quenchant?
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For what your looking for, you may get better results with 8670, or 15n20. I never had luck heat treating 80crv2 in a forge. From some testing I’ve been doing, my 8670 heat treated in my forge vs my kiln, the results aren’t drastically different. It’s a simple steel to heat treat. You’ll probably get better results than 1095.
 
(I just realized I posted this answer without reading page 2 of the thread first). I recommend a short soak, 5 minutes or so, for 80CrV2, for peace of mind more than anything. There will be no grain growth if temperature is controlled (And probably no grain growth even without good temp control, being eutectoid or slightly above and it's vanadium count). When talking with a well known metallurgist about why soak is necessary for certain steels, he mentioned that alloying was the primary reason why soak is employed. And to some extent, when austenitizing a hypereutectoid steel, a soak is good practice (that extra carbon above ~0.77% needs time instead of temp. too much temp brings a few problems, while time solves those problems). Back to alloying, he mentioned that steels like hypoeutectoids and eutectoids with very little alloying (like 80CrV2) really don't "need" a strong soak. When you move up to O1 with it's alloying, and 52100 with it's alloying, and higher alloy steels like A2 etc, then yes, soak those steels. 1095 and W2, best to soak for 5 minutes or slightly more, because they are hypereutectoid, but very low alloy. That is my understanding. Not a metallurgist.
 
Busto said:
Put 10 smiths in a room and get them to agree 100% on heat treating process might happen but there will be debate and perhaps no two methods will be exactly the same each Smith will have a little different tweak on what works best for THEIR process.
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Wow, that's better than what I heard when I started smithing 6-7 years ago. I was told that if you ask 10 smiths how to do something, you'll get 12 different answers.....

~billyO

(sorry to stray off topic...)
 
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Alec Wachtman said:
Wait, 80CRV2 requires a soak time? Is that necessary? I know that there are threads on here that debate the necessity of soaking a blade.
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No soak time is necessary for 80crv2. If I understand correctly he means he let it in an oven to heat up and get to full heat in 6 mins.
 
im not sure its necessary at all. on alpha knife supply it said to soak it for 5 min. i got busy and it sat for about 6 lol.
 
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