1095 steel: on paper vs. in practice

[patrickguignot]

I’ve always found it curious that a few steel charts online describe 1095’s toughness as ‘not that high’. And yet we see this steel all the time in tough guy survival knives

I had the same question and Larrin answered here :

Post in thread 'I Tested the Edge Retention of 48 Steels'

May 1, 2020

I have one question about 1095 : what is the purpose of this steel? It has very low edge retention and very low corrosion resistance. And, compared to other low alloy steels, the toughness is unimpressive (for instance compared to 5160 or 52100).
Why the myriads of knives in 1095 steel (ESEE, TOPS, Ontario, Ka-Bar...etc)?
Why not using something like S35VN? You have MUCH better edge retention, MUCH better corrosion resistance and same toughness (around 10 ft-lbs).
I understand the purpose of 5160 or 52100 (high toughness) but IMHO it makes no sense to use a low toughness low alloy...

• Larrin

• 

 

[DangerZone98]

I think we see it used often because of cost and the fact that most folks value abrasive edge retention over toughness - even when they’re making survival knives, etc.

Virtually all modern knife steels are incredibly tough - carbon and stainless. They are mostly “good enough” for cutting and chopping wood, however tougher steels can be used hard (chopping) with slightly thinner edges than less tough steels, and this is an important factor for folks like myself that chop hard, dead wood with their fixed blades -so we gravitate to 5160, A8 mod, S7, etc.

Anecdotally, folks say the same things about D2 being “super tough”, but generally they aren’t doing direct comparisons against knives with other carbon steels that are renowned for toughness, in similar geometries. Anecdotal evidence is really just “stuff some people said”. Not worthless, but not what I use to make decisions about the steels I choose in chopping knives.



Agreed. Exactly. It’ll work just fine.

It just won’t be QUITE as tough as another knife of exactly the same shape and hardness in 5160.

So costs aside, you can technically have an M390 chopper even if that steel isn’t usually used for big knives? Just beef up the blade profile and thickness.

 

[me2]

You could do that but I wouldn’t. Rough use knives like that don’t have much need for wear resistance. They get damaged before they get functionally dull.

 

[TC]

I’ve always found it curious that a few steel charts online describe 1095’s toughness as ‘not that high’.

If you use enough of it it will make for a tough knife. Just look at the stock thickness on many of those knives!

 

[Maximumbob54]

I would hazard the mass use of 1095 would come down to everything behind it being a cost issue. I doubt you can source, heat treat, grind, finish anything else as low cost as you can a basic no additive steel like 1095. Which would be the most probable reasoning behind so many US made knives being in 1095 because margins get sharper than their profits ever will. For instance, I would love to know the profit margin on an Esee 3 in 1095 vs. in S35VN despite the about twenty dollar price difference.

And I have to yap on at least a little bit yet again on hardness of 1095. I have ZERO experience with 1095 any harder than the usual 55-57 HRC. Usually you get the reasoning of so it's still tough, so it's still easy to sharpen, or some other reasoning. But lately I've seen some videos and looked up some and apparently if you have it custom done it's some amazing stuff.

So my bottom line is if 1095 is so cheap then why aren't the knives from anyone priced more affordable compared to if you start stepping up in steel???

 

[J. Doyle]

I would hazard the mass use of 1095 would come down to everything behind it being a cost issue. I doubt you can source, heat treat, grind, finish anything else as low cost as you can a basic no additive steel like 1095.

You clearly haven't read the entire thread.

And I have to yap on at least a little bit yet again on hardness of 1095. I have ZERO experience with 1095 any harder than the usual 55-57 HRC. Usually you get the reasoning of so it's still tough, so it's still easy to sharpen, or some other reasoning. But lately I've seen some videos and looked up some and apparently if you have it custom done it's some amazing stuff.

That would depend a lot on specific details/ processes and intended use. "Amazing stuff" is way too vague to draw any conclusions.

So my bottom line is if 1095 is so cheap then why aren't the knives from anyone priced more affordable compared to if you start stepping up in steel???

Steel us the cheapest part of a knife, generally. The actual cost of steel per blade is a few bucks at most. What has to be done to a certain steel in the manufacturing makes more difference.

 

[Maximumbob54]

You clearly haven't read the entire thread.


That would depend a lot on specific details/ processes and intended use. "Amazing stuff" is way too vague to draw any conclusions.


Steel us the cheapest part of a knife, generally. The actual cost of steel per blade is a few bucks at most. What has to be done to a certain steel in the manufacturing makes more difference.

I did. And yet I still felt the need to add my two cents.

Try looking up videos on high hardness 1095 knives and draw your own conclusions.

I did try to offer an example so I'm not sure how else to type that conclusion.

 

[J. Doyle]

I did. And yet I still felt the need to add my two cents.

Well your assumptions about cost are incorrect.

Try looking up videos on high hardness 1095 knives and draw your own conclusions.

I don't need to look it up. I have my own extensive first-hand experience. High hardness 1095 is where it shines....as thin, wear-resistant slicers. High hardness 1095 will not be tough. Again if you manage to make 1095 tough you either really dumbed it down, or botched the heat treat or both.

I did try to offer an example so I'm not sure how else to type that conclusion.

I didn't see any specific examples just you mentioning that according to videos and stuff you looked up it's "amazing stuff".

 

[Maximumbob54]

Well your assumptions about cost are incorrect.


I don't need to look it up. I have my own extensive first-hand experience. High hardness 1095 is where it shines....as thin, wear-resistant slicers. High hardness 1095 will not be tough. Again if you manage to make 1095 tough you either really dumbed it down, or botched the heat treat or both.


I didn't see any specific examples just you mentioning that according to videos and stuff you looked up it's "amazing stuff".

How so?

That would be what I was referring to in said videos. But I'm left with what happens if you make something like an Esee 4 in that high hardness? At what point does it fail in "normal" use as in not using it to baton through wood?

To me, 1095 holding an edge is "amazing stuff"!

 

[J. Doyle]

How so?

Because there are a bunch of readily available steels that would be much better suited to those types of knives/uses that are just as easy to heat treat and cost the same or less. 15n20 and 1075 are at the very top of the list. 8670, 5160, and maybe AEBL are also strong contenders.

That would be what I was referring to in said videos. But I'm left with what happens if you make something like an Esee 4 in that high hardness? At what point does it fail in "normal" use as in not using it to baton through wood?

If you made an ESEE 4 in 1095 at 63/64 Rc and used it like people use ESEE knives, you would likely have massive edge chipping in short order. Unless it had the edge geometry of a splitting maul, and even still you'd probably have damage.

To me, 1095 holding an edge is "amazing stuff"!

Okay.

 

[DeadboxHero]

So my bottom line is if 1095 is so cheap then why aren't the knives from anyone priced more affordable compared to if you start stepping up in steel???

You make an excellent point,

Why do these knife makers charge so much if the steel is so cheap?


Well, we could buy a bar of that steel and put some handles on it and now we have the world's cheapest and toughest 1095.

I've never seen anybody chip an annealed 90° "edge"

If it never chips, it's high performance.


Best part is you get the maximum amount of 1095.

Nothing ground away and wasted.

We get the full rectangle.

Most knife makers seem like they just grind all the steel away, which means you're not getting your money's worth out of that 1095.

You also have four edges at each corner so that's like four times the edge retention.

I like that each corne..I mean edge is also zero ground to 90° per side.

I wish I knew all this sooner. I think I've been doing this wrong the entire time.

 

[Maximumbob54]

i feel like I'm always either over explaining or under explaining.

Yes, the piece of 1095 bar stock is only one part of the knife building process. But then I see makers complain they won't use suchity such steel because it wears out belts, grinders, their arms. They won't us unobtanium because the heat treating process is to demanding on their time, foil wrapping, cryo, or whatever other weird demand the process requires. And then just trying to sharpen the final product before it gets packaged and kicked out the door.

I feel like what I've read on 1095 and most other basic steels you get to laugh at all that. Everything about it is easier.

I'm not sure why anyone ever thinks I mean because the steel is cheap then the knife should also be dirt cheap. It just seems like there should be some cost savings passed on to the consumer and I'm not feeling it in any production brand. And I certainly don't know any or all the custom maker prices out there.

 

[J. Doyle]

It just seems like there should be some cost savings passed on to the consumer and I'm not feeling it in any production brand. And I certainly don't know any or all the custom maker prices out there.

Without knowing a specific example, it's hard to say what cost "should be".

Makers usually have a base price and things go up from there, not an upper level price that gets whittled down as you use "lesser" materials.

Plus we've already established the cost of the steel is the least significant part of the price.

As far as not feeling cost savings, unless you're Patrick Starfish, surely you must be at least partially aware of the economic state of the world?

To anyone that thinks a knife is priced too high, I encourage one to try making their own once to see exactly what goes into it.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

To anyone that thinks a knife is priced too high, I encourage one to try making their own once to see exactly what goes into it.

A long time ago, one of my knifemaking mentors, Dan Farr, brought me to Blade Show to help work his table (it was also the roll-out introduction for the then-brand-new forging steel Crucible CruForgeV, of which he was instrumental in the development of). While standing and listening to him chat with a prospective buyer, and most of the work on his table marked sold, the customer asked him why didn’t he make more knives to sell?

Without skipping a beat, Dan stated ‘Because I can’t afford to.’

 

[DeadboxHero]

I feel like what I've read on 1095 and most other basic steels you get to laugh at all that. Everything about it is easier.

I feel like this is some good energy for getting into some knife making.

Sometimes, we can't just read about it, we have to do it to fully understand.

Maybe making some knives will help give some better perspective to some of these questions.

 

[jbmonkey]

You make an excellent point,

Why do these knife makers charge so much if the steel is so cheap?


Well, we could buy a bar of that steel and put some handles on it and now we have the world's cheapest and toughest 1095.

I've never seen anybody chip an annealed 90° "edge"

If it never chips, it's high performance.


Best part is you get the maximum amount of 1095.

Nothing ground away and wasted.

We get the full rectangle.

Most knife makers seem like they just grind all the steel away, which means you're not getting your money's worth out of that 1095.

You also have four edges at each corner so that's like four times the edge retention.

I like that each corne..I mean edge is also zero ground to 90° per side.

I wish I knew all this sooner. I think I've been doing this wrong the entire time.

when are the pre-orders for these gonna happen?

 

[DeadboxHero]

when are the pre-orders for these gonna happen?

Hell yeah, might need to upgrade my membership and get on it baby!

 

[bikerector]

Hell yeah, might need to upgrade my membership and get on it baby!

"The Gallagher"

Watch out melons!

Should be able to pry open a pickle jar with something that tough. Could probably even chop the pickles back into cucumbers with those 90 degree annealed edges.

 

[Leo Greer]

I work in a kitchen, so here’s my own experience with kitchen knives…

I have one in 15N20 and one in MagnaCut. 59 and 63 HRC respectively. The edge on the 15N20 has a much greater tendency to roll when exposed to ordinary use, such as veggies, deboning meat, and chopping on wooden cutting boards or sometimes a hard countertop. The MagnaCut edge has held up much better and I would personally feel much better using it harder. Even if it is more difficult to sharpen, it holds a great edge much, much longer, and resists edge damage even when dealing with bones and boards.

Also, when using folding knives (and I’m not easy on my users), I’ve had my supersteels perform better than the “budget” steels when doing things like trimming the branches off Christmas trees and cutting small saplings. Well-heat-treated MagnaCut and Elmax have held up perfectly. Most other steels have not.

Anyways just my opinions.

 

[Seedy Lot]

I work in a kitchen, so here’s my own experience with kitchen knives…

I have one in 15N20 and one in MagnaCut. 59 and 63 HRC respectively. The edge on the 15N20 has a much greater tendency to roll when exposed to ordinary use, such as veggies, deboning meat, and chopping on wooden cutting boards or sometimes a hard countertop. The MagnaCut edge has held up much better and I would personally feel much better using it harder. Even if it is more difficult to sharpen, it holds a great edge much, much longer, and resists edge damage even when dealing with bones and boards.

Also, when using folding knives (and I’m not easy on my users), I’ve had my supersteels perform better than the “budget” steels when doing things like trimming the branches off Christmas trees and cutting small saplings. Well-heat-treated MagnaCut and Elmax have held up perfectly. Most other steels have not.

Anyways just my opinions.

Maybe you need to try 15N20 at 63 Rc...