1095 steel: on paper vs. in practice

Leo Greer said:
I work in a kitchen, so here’s my own experience with kitchen knives…

I have one in 15N20 and one in MagnaCut. 59 and 63 HRC respectively. The edge on the 15N20 has a much greater tendency to roll when exposed to ordinary use, such as veggies, deboning meat, and chopping on wooden cutting boards or sometimes a hard countertop. The MagnaCut edge has held up much better and I would personally feel much better using it harder. Even if it is more difficult to sharpen, it holds a great edge much, much longer, and resists edge damage even when dealing with bones and boards.

Also, when using folding knives (and I’m not easy on my users), I’ve had my supersteels perform better than the “budget” steels when doing things like trimming the branches off Christmas trees and cutting small saplings. Well-heat-treated MagnaCut and Elmax have held up perfectly. Most other steels have not.

Anyways just my opinions. 😁
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I don’t nor have ever worked in a kitchen but I’ve never used one knife for veggies and deboning. What sort of knife are you using?
 
Leo Greer said:
I work in a kitchen, so here’s my own experience with kitchen knives…

I have one in 15N20 and one in MagnaCut. 59 and 63 HRC respectively. The edge on the 15N20 has a much greater tendency to roll when exposed to ordinary use, such as veggies, deboning meat, and chopping on wooden cutting boards or sometimes a hard countertop. The MagnaCut edge has held up much better and I would personally feel much better using it harder. Even if it is more difficult to sharpen, it holds a great edge much, much longer, and resists edge damage even when dealing with bones and boards.

Also, when using folding knives (and I’m not easy on my users), I’ve had my supersteels perform better than the “budget” steels when doing things like trimming the branches off Christmas trees and cutting small saplings. Well-heat-treated MagnaCut and Elmax have held up perfectly. Most other steels have not.

Anyways just my opinions. 😁
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If you have 15n20 that rolls during normal kitchen work, someone fumbled the ball on the heat treat.
 
Maximumbob54 said:
I would hazard the mass use of 1095 would come down to everything behind it being a cost issue. I doubt you can source, heat treat, grind, finish anything else as low cost as you can a basic no additive steel like 1095. Which would be the most probable reasoning behind so many US made knives being in 1095 because margins get sharper than their profits ever will. For instance, I would love to know the profit margin on an Esee 3 in 1095 vs. in S35VN despite the about twenty dollar price difference.

And I have to yap on at least a little bit yet again on hardness of 1095. I have ZERO experience with 1095 any harder than the usual 55-57 HRC. Usually you get the reasoning of so it's still tough, so it's still easy to sharpen, or some other reasoning. But lately I've seen some videos and looked up some and apparently if you have it custom done it's some amazing stuff.

So my bottom line is if 1095 is so cheap then why aren't the knives from anyone priced more affordable compared to if you start stepping up in steel???
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Maximumbob54 said:
i feel like I'm always either over explaining or under explaining.

Yes, the piece of 1095 bar stock is only one part of the knife building process. But then I see makers complain they won't use suchity such steel because it wears out belts, grinders, their arms. They won't us unobtanium because the heat treating process is to demanding on their time, foil wrapping, cryo, or whatever other weird demand the process requires. And then just trying to sharpen the final product before it gets packaged and kicked out the door.

I feel like what I've read on 1095 and most other basic steels you get to laugh at all that. Everything about it is easier.

I'm not sure why anyone ever thinks I mean because the steel is cheap then the knife should also be dirt cheap. It just seems like there should be some cost savings passed on to the consumer and I'm not feeling it in any production brand. And I certainly don't know any or all the custom maker prices out there.
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I think there’s too many assumptions and generalizations in conversations like this, which is why as a rule I tend to avoid them. No clue why I’m choosing to participate here, but…

Modern alloys aren’t necessarily any harder to heat treat than simple steels. They may require different resources (you pointed out heat treating foil, cryo, etc) but ultimately it’s heating the steel up and quenching it.

Where this discussion really becomes a conundrum, and why everyone keeps coming back to ‘how it was processed’, is the elephant in the room.

Making gross, sweeping statements about ‘1095’ or ‘15n20’ or ‘MagnaCut’ or any other steel is the issue. How a production company like those mentioned in this thread heat treat versus how folks like myself, Shawn DeadboxHero DeadboxHero and John J. Doyle J. Doyle heat treat - even with the same alloys - are going to result in GROSSLY different results.

It’s an enormous mistake to believe that large production companies are doing a better job at this than the small volume maker is. It’s the very fact that we work in small quantities that allows us to process with far greater attention to detail than the big guys can - or do. We’re watching for anomalies in how the steel reacts during our process, where they’re possibly -maybe- doing random sample testing. Maybe. Hopefully.

I’ll give you a perfect example, and I’ll stick with using names from participants in this thread for my anecdotal examples.

Shawn DeadboxHero DeadboxHero likely does more work with sample testing for a given batch of a given alloy BEFORE he heat treats a blade made of it than 99.999% of ANY production companies do. Meaning, he’s made, heat treated and tested countless samples of a given steel to determine the EXACT steps needed to optimize it’s heat treat BEFORE he actually heat treats a knife.

Production companies neither have that luxury nor are willing to invest the time in it. They likely outsource heat treat, where steels are processed en masse, at ‘data sheet’ spec. That in and of itself can be confusing. Ever look at a data sheet? I’ll give you a perfect example - here’s a clip from the Crucible MagnaCut data sheet:

IMG_6994-X2.jpg


Just count the number of ways to achieve 62RC.

Do you think they all react the same way? What impact do various temperatures for austenitizing temps and tempering temps have? What about the speed or temperature at which the steel is cooled? How does this change the behavior of the alloy? A small maker can dial his processes in down to great detail, where production doesn’t have that ability - it’s nearly impossible. In fact, if you read that sheet, you’ll note that testing shows “Vacuum or atmosphere cooling may result in up to 1-2 RC points lower.” That’s a big drop, and guess how production knives are processed?

I’ve actually been to J. Doyle J. Doyle shop - he heat treats exclusively with molten salt bath, allowing him precise control over his austenitizing temps, he quenches using industrial high speed quenchants, and he’s doing all of this one blade at a time - there’s no delay, there’s no hesitation. He’s paying attention moment by moment, not minute by minute.

This is all just a way to say that HOW something is utilized likely has more to do with how it performs than WHAT is utilized, and why talking about this stuff in generalization is a big part of the problem.
 
Arathol said:
I like 1095. It just works.
I also find that chasing numbers is a fools game.....
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OP, this is it. This is the answer, we're done here.

Have to agree 100%. 1095 is an entirely good steel, and candidly speaking if it was all that was available for fixed blade knives, I'd still have every single outdoors need met. I love my 3V and D3V choppers, but if I was stuck out in the woods with one of my Beckers, I'm going to be fine.
 
Well said, Matthew Thank you for the compliment and explanation.


M Maximumbob54

You're getting some good information out of these people. Getting a detailed post from Matthew I'd argue this is quite a compliment.

He's a been on this forum a long time, seen many people come and go and is a highly skilled and seasoned custom knife maker specializing in handmade fixed blades of obvious high quality.

For some perspective , it gets exhausting having to regurgitate everything over and over and over and over and over and over again on the forum.

So don't get discouraged and keep up your enthusiasm with an open mind and plenty of people will gladly share what they can.

We are all in good company here.


Here is some testing done by D DevinT
that further validates everything Matthew is saying about the hardness not being universal. It's all about the microstructure making up that hardness.

aRwOIWl.png


All the same hardness but drastically different amounts of toughness due to the microstructure that was created with different heat treatments.

The devil is in the details.




Matthew Gregory said:
I think there’s too many assumptions and generalizations in conversations like this, which is why as a rule I tend to avoid them. No clue why I’m choosing to participate here, but…

Modern alloys aren’t necessarily any harder to heat treat than simple steels. They may require different resources (you pointed out heat treating foil, cryo, etc) but ultimately it’s heating the steel up and quenching it.

Where this discussion really becomes a conundrum, and why everyone keeps coming back to ‘how it was processed’, is the elephant in the room.

Making gross, sweeping statements about ‘1095’ or ‘15n20’ or ‘MagnaCut’ or any other steel is the issue. How a production company like those mentioned in this thread heat treat versus how folks like myself, Shawn DeadboxHero DeadboxHero and John J. Doyle J. Doyle heat treat - even with the same alloys - are going to result in GROSSLY different results.

It’s an enormous mistake to believe that large production companies are doing a better job at this than the small volume maker is. It’s the very fact that we work in small quantities that allows us to process with far greater attention to detail than the big guys can - or do. We’re watching for anomalies in how the steel reacts during our process, where they’re possibly -maybe- doing random sample testing. Maybe. Hopefully.

I’ll give you a perfect example, and I’ll stick with using names from participants in this thread for my anecdotal examples.

Shawn DeadboxHero DeadboxHero likely does more work with sample testing for a given batch of a given alloy BEFORE he heat treats a blade made of it than 99.999% of ANY production companies do. Meaning, he’s made, heat treated and tested countless samples of a given steel to determine the EXACT steps needed to optimize it’s heat treat BEFORE he actually heat treats a knife.

Production companies neither have that luxury nor are willing to invest the time in it. They likely outsource heat treat, where steels are processed en masse, at ‘data sheet’ spec. That in and of itself can be confusing. Ever look at a data sheet? I’ll give you a perfect example - here’s a clip from the Crucible MagnaCut data sheet:

IMG_6994-X2.jpg


Just count the number of ways to achieve 62RC.

Do you think they all react the same way? What impact do various temperatures for austenitizing temps and tempering temps have? What about the speed or temperature at which the steel is cooled? How does this change the behavior of the alloy? A small maker can dial his processes in down to great detail, where production doesn’t have that ability - it’s nearly impossible. In fact, if you read that sheet, you’ll note that testing shows “Vacuum or atmosphere cooling may result in up to 1-2 RC points lower.” That’s a big drop, and guess how production knives are processed?

I’ve actually been to J. Doyle J. Doyle shop - he heat treats exclusively with molten salt bath, allowing him precise control over his austenitizing temps, he quenches using industrial high speed quenchants, and he’s doing all of this one blade at a time - there’s no delay, there’s no hesitation. He’s paying attention moment by moment, not minute by minute.

This is all just a way to say that HOW something is utilized likely has more to do with how it performs than WHAT is utilized, and why talking about this stuff in generalization is a big part of the problem.
Click to expand...
 
DeadboxHero said:
Well said, Matthew Thank you for the compliment and explanation.


M Maximumbob54

Getting a detailed post from Matthew I'd argue this is quite a compliment.

He's a been on this forum a long time, seen many people come and go and is a highly skilled and seasoned custom knife maker specializing in handmade fixed blades of obvious high quality.
Click to expand...

I’m just old and cranky.


I know you understand this - it’s like constantly trying to reason with an endless wall of BS. Expecting that anyone can hear you over the BS saps your desire to engage.

No matter how many times you manage to demonstrate what you’re talking about, there’s always that guy that insists on sticking the fork into the wall outlet again… just can’t reach someone that doesn’t want to be reached.

That’s not directed at you, btw M Maximumbob54

Shawn’s right - find your own path!
 
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Matthew Gregory said:
Making gross, sweeping statements about ‘1095’ or ‘15n20’ or ‘MagnaCut’ or any other steel is the issue.
Click to expand...
I understand your point, however at times it’s much easier to speak in generalities rather than having to add a caveat to every statement.

It’s not like steel choice doesn’t matter, it just might not be as important to the function of a knife as HT or geometry.

When folks talk about the properties of one steel vs another, I tend to assume (rightly or wrongly) that they’re talking about samples that are of the same geometry, at the same hardness, utilizing the “best” HT process for whatever attribute is being measured. Otherwise, as you say, it becomes difficult to talk about steels at all…
 
scdub said:
I understand your point, however at times it’s much easier to speak in generalities rather than having to add a caveat to every statement.

It’s not like steel choice doesn’t matter, it just might not be as important to the function of a knife as HT or geometry.

When folks talk about the properties of one steel vs another, I tend to assume (rightly or wrongly) that they’re talking about samples that are of the same geometry, at the same hardness, utilizing the “best” HT process for whatever attribute is being measured. Otherwise, as you say, it becomes difficult to talk about steels at all…
Click to expand...


I understand and appreciate your position, but your last statement is exactly why this sort of generalizing won’t and can’t work. The individual above with a 15n20 chef knife that’s too soft and rolls in use is precisely what we’re talking about. It’s not the steel, it’s not the geometry- it’s the heat treat. It 100% changes the properties being discussed for that steel. Because the heat treat is so awful on that blade, by the time you’ve changed the geometry to compensate for the performance of the heat treat for its intended application, you’ve created a tool that’s nearly worthless for the task. Shawn’s example of an ‘annealed bar stock’ knife is the exaggerated conclusion to that.

Whether tedious or not, if one wants to compare these things, one shouldn’t insist it be expressed in 160 characters or less. At least, if you want to do it intelligently. You CAN’T assume same geometry, you CAN’T assume same hardness (my example of 62RC MagnaCut above demonstrates that).

Complex things sometimes require complex answers. As beings capable of thinking in such complex ways, we ought to apply that intellect to the things we’re passionate about.
 
There's no question on if 1095 is a tough steel, it isn't. Swap an s7 jackhammer bit for a 1095 bit and watch it crumble.

Now is 1095 tough enough for most tasks is another question. In typical esee/kabar knives they are left soft and obtuse, which leaves a lot on the table in terms of performance, but makes the knives more survivable.

Take a bk16 and a dek1 and apply lateral prying load on it, the becker will bend/fail first every single time. (Love uncle E and beckers, not throwing shade)

In other alloys, you can achieve greater toughness  and strength with thinner geometry. Obviously heat treatment/tempering are critical and make or break the performance of any blade, botch em and the steel type is almost worthless.


1095 is tough enough for general use when used in certain specifications, I agree. When I get to thumping on blades I prefer high toughness AND strength/edge stability. All that said, I still have becker and esee blades in my "collection", I love em for what they are and it was a becker bk2 that brought me to these forums.
 
I don’t think anyone is saying you can’t enjoy a knife for what it is. Knifemakers, as a rule, tend to be knife enthusiasts, and we usually start with a collection before we do a dive into making stuff. I have plenty of knives that ‘work’, but what I don’t do is build narratives that justify their weaknesses. That doesn’t mean I can’t use and enjoy them!
 
marrenmiller said:
I'd be much more impressed if 1095 held up better than other steels when used with good cutting geometry.
Click to expand...

J. Doyle said:
better still, 15n20.
Click to expand...

The two posts above summarize my thoughts on this matter.

Leo Greer said:
I work in a kitchen, so here’s my own experience with kitchen knives…

I have one in 15N20 and one in MagnaCut. 59 and 63 HRC respectively. The edge on the 15N20 has a much greater tendency to roll when exposed to ordinary use, such as veggies, deboning meat, and chopping on wooden cutting boards or sometimes a hard countertop.
Click to expand...

Leo, I believe the knife you are referring to in 15N20 is the one I made for you. It was one of a small number of blade blanks already heat treated that I purchased from another maker who had done the plasma cutting and heat treatment on a few blades in 15N20, 8670, and AEB-L last year, and got stuck with when the customer backed out at the last minute. I bought them so he would at least break even on them. I didn't have the luxury of specifying the hardness for those blades, but if I had, I would have asked for 61 RC, based on some info that I came across around the same time last year:

Larrin

Thread '15N20 steel toughness'

There was a discussion recently about the toughness of 15N20. I tested that along with some other stuff. I have an article and a video.

Article: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2023/03/22/how-to-heat-treat-nickel-knife-steels-15n20-8670-l6/

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I tried to call you this morning, but didn't leave a voicemail, I figured I would just tag you here. If it is indeed the knife I made you, please reach out to me by phone, text, or email, so we can discuss making this right for you. Thanks,

David
 
To me 1095 somehow goes with scandi or saber grinds for fixed, or pocket jewelries like GEC or Case. Any good full flat grinds with 1095 tested with hard use?
 
vinprom said:
To me 1095 somehow goes with scandi or saber grinds for fixed, or pocket jewelries like GEC or Case. Any good full flat grinds with 1095 tested with hard use?
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... anything from ESEE, except the ESEE 5, which is more of a saber or the... whatever the one is with the scandi.
 
These discussions are what really make me appreciate bladeforums. I started my knife hobby/passion/obsession in the late 60s. All through the 70s and 80s, this kind of information was very difficult to find. I only knew about the few knife brands available at local stores and occasionally through mail order, and they rarely even talked about what steel was used, let alone hardness or heat treat. The knife world back then was essentially a take what was available and live with it, hoping that the manufacturer knew what they were doing. Some did, some didn't. But now we have expertise from people like DeadboxHero DeadboxHero , J. Doyle J. Doyle , Matthew Gregory Matthew Gregory , David Mary David Mary , Larrin Larrin who are willing to share their knowledge with us. I always knew that geometry was very important, but through these and others on the forum I have learned a lot about how heat treat protocols are so critical to the properties of the finished blade. I may not be a metallurgist, but at the click of a mouse I have access to the combined knowledge of those who really know their stuff.
 
I do have a lot of love for high end steels. I’ve had knives in a lot of different super tough steels, and at the end of the day I keep coming back to my Beckers and certain Tops like the Longhorn Bowie and the Silent Hero. I’ve actually sold off most of my high end stuff in favor of my basic, run of the mill production knives. I still have a lot super high performance knives that have excellent geometry, superb materials, and precision dialed in heat treats. I just prefer my sharpened prybars, cause I’m weird like that.
 
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