1095 various quench medium hardness test results: Brine, Houghto-Quench k, Apco K-9,

[Natlek]

Yes jdm61 I like the fact Parks 50 can be used at room temperature; just eliminates one more procedure.

But yes I did use the Houghto-Quench® K - Houghton at quite a range of temperatures; 140°F, 160°F, 180°F, and finally 137°F and didn’t hit 60 at any temperature so I don’t think my issue is temperature alone.

I appreciate all the suggestions and they are all making me think that it probably is not the proper oil but I am going to try to call Houghton in the next couple days depending on my schedule to see if they have any suggestions.

Did you broke sample pieces to see what is inside , I mind grain ?

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

No I didn’t Natlek only because at this point I am preoccupied trying to get my hardnesses up by experimenting with my quenching. When I get that under control I will probably start experimenting with thermal cycling or normalizing and at that point I would start inspecting my grain. That is something I intend to investigate eventually.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Thank you very much for all the suggestions and encouragement everybody. This really is a great site!

I am going to try and grind .010” to .020” off my samples and see if I get down to some harder material as suggested by Kuraki and Tom Lewis and Willie71. If that isn’t it I think I might try and contact Houghton and see if they have any ideas.

Again thanks for all the help and I will update about any progress I make.

 

[JamesPEmmons]

I have test 1095 at 65 and w2 at 67 on a calibrated Rockwell tester using Houghton k. 90 degrees oil temp is the sweet spot.

 

[PARKERKNIVES]

I have also tested W2 using the K oil. It was Aldo's steel too , surfaced ground down quite a bit and got readings of 66 rc . De carb is tricky and steels can be inconsistent.

 

[kuraki]

Thank you Kuraki. I will definitely tomorrow try grinding a little deeper and see if I get any better results. You are the second person who has suggested that so maybe that is the secret. I didn’t think it was because with Brine I didn’t have to but maybe they don’t quench in the same way.

Okay, I didn’t pay $300 I keep saying almost $300 and I think it was about $265 and I’m just rounding up because I’m frustrated but there are actually very good reasons why I didn’t have the Parks shipped which I’m sure you not are interested in but it might be therapeutic for me to get it out.

We are cursed in Canada because we are living next to the greatest market in the world. You have no idea how often we can only get things from the United States but we are cursed because getting things across the border can be very frustrating.

Right now the exchange rate makes us lose about 25 to 30% which is frustrating and then it would have been $100 to ship it to Canada which is about 130 Canadian so I already would be up to about $250 Canadian and then there is the cursed brokerage fees that UPS and FedEx extort from us.

Basically your courier acts as your broker and just clears it through customs for you which is probably someone typing at a screen for probably a few minutes and then they pay the sales tax. So you would think it would probably be the sales tax plus a few bucks but no they charge whatever they want and it would probably be another hundred just for the brokerage fees which is highway robbery considering how little they do.

I bought my Evenheat oven from the states and apparently some of the controllers were faulty so they replaced all of them for new customers so I got a free one through UPS. When it was delivered to me UPS wanted $150 brokerage fees. Because it was a free replacement there should have been no charge so I had to contact Evenheat to contact UPS and tell them it was free of charge.

A few days later they re-delivered it without charging me the brokerage fee of $150. On Friday I received a letter from UPS saying I owe them $150 for the brokerage fees for that free part that there should be no brokerage fees on. I’m going to have to call them Monday and try to straighten them out and I’m sure after I do in another month they will send me another bill.

That’s why I didn’t get the Parks shipped to Canada. Excuse me while I get a drink, LOL.

I understand. I've bought/sold a few machines for work to Canada/Mexico. The one thing NAFTA should have made better for us and it can certainly be a goat rope.

You can console yourself with all of the cool, cheap, foreign arms and ammunition Canadians can get that we Americans are banned from importing, like Norinco AKs and ammunition, or Polytech M14s, or the like

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

SUCCESS!!!!

Thank you so much guys for all your input because despite my resistance you steered me in the right direction and solved my problem. I took my sample which had a hardness of around 57 on average ground off about .020” and got a hardness reading of 65!

It is a great relief to realize that my Houghto-Quench® K was not a waste of money and actually does work as advertised. What made me think that wasn’t the problem was that the Brine quenched samples were 66 with just the top surface black taken off. It is odd that the Houghto-Quench® K - Houghton hardens so much more below the surface than Brine but that is just fine now that I know.

And thank you JamesPEmmons and PARKERKNIVES for verifying that was probably my issue. And JamesPEmmons thank you for your 90°F sweet spot post because I find that very surprising. That oil has a maximum temperature of 180°F so I didn’t test it below 137 degrees Fahrenheit but after your post I will definitely do some lower temperature experimentation.

Once again thanks everybody for all the help. Yesterday I was really lost and confounded about what my issue could be and thanks to you guys I’m back on track. What a great site and community!

Now that I know that this oil actually works I thought some fellow Canadians may be interested where you can get Houghto-Quench® K – Houghton in Ontario.

Commercial Oil
Tel: (905) 560-3244
1-800-463-1976
Fax: (905) 560-2961
35 Burford Road, Hamilton ON L8E 3C6
Business Hours 8:00-4:30 Monday to Friday

And kuraki yes you would think after NAFTA importing wouldn’t be such the hassle it is. I’m not a big gun guy so I don’t take a lot of consolation that in Canada we can get cool cheap foreign arms and ammunition but if I do see the apocalypse coming I appreciate the fact you let me know I can stock up, LOL.

 

[Willie71]

SUCCESS!!!!

Thank you so much guys for all your input because despite my resistance you steered me in the right direction and solved my problem. I took my sample which had a hardness of around 57 on average ground off about .020” and got a hardness reading of 65!

It is a great relief to realize that my Houghto-Quench® K was not a waste of money and actually does work as advertised. What made me think that wasn’t the problem was that the Brine quenched samples were 66 with just the top surface black taken off. It is odd that the Houghto-Quench® K - Houghton hardens so much more below the surface than Brine but that is just fine now that I know.

And thank you JamesPEmmons and PARKERKNIVES for verifying that was probably my issue. And JamesPEmmons thank you for your 90°F sweet spot post because I find that very surprising. That oil has a maximum temperature of 180°F so I didn’t test it below 137 degrees Fahrenheit but after your post I will definitely do some lower temperature experimentation.

Once again thanks everybody for all the help. Yesterday I was really lost and confounded about what my issue could be and thanks to you guys I’m back on track. What a great site and community!

Now that I know that this oil actually works I thought some fellow Canadians may be interested where you can get Houghto-Quench® K – Houghton in Ontario.

Commercial Oil
Tel: (905) 560-3244
1-800-463-1976
Fax: (905) 560-2961
35 Burford Road, Hamilton ON L8E 3C6
Business Hours 8:00-4:30 Monday to Friday

And kuraki yes you would think after NAFTA importing wouldn’t be such the hassle it is. I’m not a big gun guy so I don’t take a lot of consolation that in Canada we can get cool cheap foreign arms and ammunition but if I do see the apocalypse coming I appreciate the fact you let me know I can stock up, LOL.

I think I noticed the same thing but wasn't sure. I find blades quenched in brine much easier to grind through the decarb layer. It seems thinner too. I thought it was just a fluke, but you noted the same thing. Must be something to it. Hmmmm..... I think I might be doing a bit of research here.

 

[JamesPEmmons]

If I read your posts correctly the samples you quenched in Houghton K you soak at temperature for 20 minutes versus the 10 minute soak when quenching in brine. Longer soak time equals more decarb. You can also get Houghton K directly thru Houghton in Toronto, but you must set up a business account with them. I pay around 240 with shipping.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Yes Willie71 I believe that the decarb layer is significantly deeper using Houghto-Quench® K compared to brine. When I did my brine tests I just ground down until all the black was gone and I had shiny material and took off almost no shiny metal and got 66 for my reading so the hardness lays just under the black layer.

And on my Houghto-Quench® K I did have to go down .020” into shiny metal to get 66. Initially I went down about .010” and got a reading of 63 so the hardness definitely is buried under a surface layer of shiny looking but decarbed steel.

But as JamesPEmmons so astutely recognized from my original post that yes I did soak my final 1095 test piece that I quenched in Houghto-Quench® K for 20 minutes and only soaked the Brine quench for 10 minutes. Although this longer soak time may contribute to the decarb layer being much thicker with the Houghto-Quench® K than the Brine quench I don’t think you could say it was the complete reason because of something in my first post maybe I didn’t make perfectly clear.

I did some tests with Houghto-Quench® K but I did not post the results because these tests were done with basically recycled test pieces from my original Brine quench and canola tests and 9 to 11 second oil tests that I normalized. Because I didn’t get the hardnesses with these tests I was hoping for I was afraid the culprit was the normalizing so I didn’t post them but these tests had 10 minutes soak times also with Houghto-Quench® K.

These test pieces I ground down till I removed all the black decarb until I got just down to shiny metal like the brine quench ones and they also were soft on the top just like the ones in my final test that I also use Houghto-Quench® K to quench but soaked for 20 minutes.

I think I am making this about as clear as mud but what I am saying is I did two different batches of tests with Houghto-Quench® K; one was done with a 10 minutes soak but with normalized recycled pieces and the second was done with a fresh piece and a 20 minutes soak and they both seemed to be soft on the fresh metal just under the black decarb layer.

So what I am saying is it would be hard to say conclusively from my tests that Houghto-Quench® K leaves a much thicker decarb layer than brine because they both had a variable compared to the brine quench but I think the evidence suggests that. I hope this makes sense but I certainly understand if it will be gibberish to most people but I think the conclusion is sound.

 

[Natlek]

How can oil affect the decarburization of steel?

Decarburization occurs when carbon
atoms at the steel surface interact
with the furnace atmosphere and are
removed from the steel as a gaseous
phase[1-8]. Carbon from the interior diffuses
towards the surface, moving from high
to low concentration and continues until the maximum depth of decarburization
is established. Because the carbon diffusion
rate increases with temperature
when the structure is fully austenitic,
MAD also increases as temperature rises
above the Ac3
. For temperatures in the
two-phase region, between the Ac1
and
Ac3
, the process is more complex. Carbon
diffusion rates in ferrite and austenite
are different, and are influenced by both
temperature and composition.

http://www.asminternational.org/doc...bfd9b1c1-89e9-4267-a26f-4ca7ed2f6f6f/23559195

 

[Willie71]

How can oil affect the decarburization of steel?



http://www.asminternational.org/doc...bfd9b1c1-89e9-4267-a26f-4ca7ed2f6f6f/23559195

This is the puzzle. Decarb happens when the surface of the steel is exposed to heat, so the quench shouldn't affect it. What I wonder about is does the brine cause some if the decarb to pull off when the scale flakes off? Does the oil impregnate the decarb layer making it harder to sand/grind through? I really have no idea, but it's clearly easier to clean up a brine quenched blade.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

I was left with the exact same bewilderment after reading that article Willie71. Decarb occurs in the furnace atmosphere where carbon atoms are removed from the steel so why would the quenching medium affect it because this is done after the damage has been done.

And it’s not like water can provide carbon reversing the decarbing because it just has hydrogen and oxygen and no carbon and the salt just has sodium and chloride. But I agree with you it’s hard to understand how this occurs but it definitely seems to be occurring.

I know there is some sort of coating that can be applied to carbon steels that can withstand their low austentising temperatures to avoid decarbing and I was thinking that maybe a way to get around needing to grind so deep when using Houghto-Quench® K as a quenching agent so I was wondering if anybody uses that?

 

[Ken H>]

There are several different anti-scale solutions around. I use plain old borax as found in Roach killer powder. Sprinkle borax on top of blade, heat the blade until the borax melts forming a "glass" coating, perhaps sprinkling a bit more borax until coated good. Then rotate blade to cover other side. While it's not the "high dollar" solution, it does seem to work pretty good.

Ken H>

 

[Kentucky]

Ive seen Kerry Stagmer use dial soap as anti scale before.A lot of old machinist used that and ive also seen them use a thin flour paste.Seemed to work pretty decent

 

[JamesPEmmons]

I just picked up a can of Condursal Z0095 which is rated at 1600. I will let you know how it works once I have time to try it. They make another version rated at 2000 also.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

I hasn't totally resolve quenching large thermal mass issue (for my ht). Maybe, it's related to what you're seeing. Consider a possibility of surface auto-temper from core-to-surface temperature rebounce. Initially surface layer cooled below Ms (Mart occurred), temperature delta between oil & surface is low, thereby low heat transfer. While core is still way above Ms, in turn - it ramps up surface temp lead to auto-temper at 500+F. Easy to test this with 2 coupons (use thicker stock to amplify rebounce issue) quenched in oil. Aust 2nd coupon then quench in brine. Even the 2nd coupon has 2x soak decarb, I suspect the soft layer will be thinner than 1st coupon.

I was left with the exact same bewilderment after reading that article Willie71. Decarb occurs in the furnace atmosphere where carbon atoms are removed from the steel so why would the quenching medium affect it because this is done after the damage has been done.

And it’s not like water can provide carbon reversing the decarbing because it just has hydrogen and oxygen and no carbon and the salt just has sodium and chloride. But I agree with you it’s hard to understand how this occurs but it definitely seems to be occurring.

I know there is some sort of coating that can be applied to carbon steels that can withstand their low austentising temperatures to avoid decarbing and I was thinking that maybe a way to get around needing to grind so deep when using Houghto-Quench® K as a quenching agent so I was wondering if anybody uses that?

 

[Natlek]

No I didn’t Natlek only because at this point I am preoccupied trying to get my hardnesses up by experimenting with my quenching. When I get that under control I will probably start experimenting with thermal cycling or normalizing and at that point I would start inspecting my grain. That is something I intend to investigate eventually.

Another thought ...................did you pay attention on a position of every test sample in HT oven ? I mind if some of test piece was close to the heat element ...............maybe there are more decarburization in steel ?

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Thank you Ken H and Kentucky for the suggestions for anti-scale materials and I may try those and JamesPEmmons I am curious about how the Condursal works out because I was thinking of getting some ATP-641 anti-scale online because it seems pretty cheap and I figure they are similar. I will definitely be looking into some kind of anti-scale in the future not just to see if I can remedy the fact that the hardening seems to be so far below the surface but also just to make the cleanup of my knives after heat treating quicker and easier.

And Natlek that was a good idea about position in the oven being the culprit but no all my pieces were centrally located far away from the elements so I can’t see that being the issue.

This thread has kind of taken on a life of its own which I’m glad to see because I have learned lots about 1095 and W-2 which I am about to tackle but actually initially the point of it was to get my quenching figured out to attain proper hardnesses so I could start practising my grinds on some cheaper carbon steels which I finally started today.

Here are the fruits of today’s labor in the shop which of course is just my garage, LOL. The grinds are not perfect but that’s the whole point of practising but they are pretty good and I’m happy with them at this stage. This is W-2 in 3/16 so it’s a nice sturdy little knife. Tomorrow I am going to put a swage edge on my drop point and some jimping with my milling machine on the blade just in front of where the handle will go and then pick up some furnace cement for my hamon and hopefully heat treat the next day. I think it is going to be a nice little knife because even without a handle it feels really good in the hand.

It’s nice to get working on a knife again because I have been so busy working my real job and getting my shop in order I have only made one other knife this summer which was my Nonlocking Flipper you might want to check out here?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1429466-WHAT-A-non-locking-flipper-It-can-t-be!!!!

I really like flippers but I’m just going to make some non-folding knives for a while because flippers do take me forever. I think after this one I will try my first hidden tang with a brass bolster to continue practising my grinds.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Today I put a swage edge on my drop point and some jimping on the spine which worked out pretty well considering it is the first time I have done either. I drilled my quarter-inch holes for my handle pins but I drilled one size undersized and used a reamer that I had bought from USA Knife Supply because I want my pins to be nice and snug.

But when I tried fitting the pins there was tons of slop so I looked at my reamer and although it came in a case labeled as one quarter the dam reamer is 17/64ths! What a bummer. That is the second time they have sent me the wrong sized reamer so I guess I should know by now to check what they send me, LOL. I can either put lots of epoxy in the hole to take up the slack or I will probably end up putting a 1/8 inch hole on either side of my incorrect sized holes because I have someone 1/8 inch brass round stock.

Anyway hopefully tomorrow I can do my heat treating if I can pick up cement tonight for my hamon.