1095 various quench medium hardness test results: Brine, Houghto-Quench k, Apco K-9,

[jdm61]

I really don't think that you need a 20 minute or even a 10 minute soak on 1095. More like let the temp equalize and then hold your breath of for a minute or so. I have been using the liquid anti-scale compound from Brownells for a number of years and seems to work well.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Thanks a lot jdm61 for letting me know about the Brownells ATP-641 anti-scale. I think I will definitely give it a try but obviously I won’t have it in time to use it on the knife I am currently making. Have you ever used it when trying to make a hamon? I just wonder if it would reduce the hamon affect in any way? When you use it you do find that you have to remove less steel to get down to the hard stuff?

And about this soak time I think I would rather err on the side of caution and give it too much time as opposed to too little. My understanding is that hyper- eutectoid steels like W-2 and 1095 need to soak a while to evenly disperse their extra carbon unlike eutectoid steels like 1080. I know some people are afraid of grain growth but from my reading on this site I think grain growth is from too high of an austentizing temperature and not so much from longer soak times so I think I have everything to gain and nothing to lose from a slightly longer soak time but then again I could be totally wrong but until I am definitively told that I am wrong I am going in that direction.

Actually since I posted this originally I found an article about making a hamon by Stacy E.Apelt here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=663988.

He says that an appropriate soak time is 5 to 10 minutes so I will try that range. Also he suggests to help give a good base to the clay to put a very thin coating the consistency of cream of furnace cement or in his case satanite on the entire knife which also acts as a protective coat against decarb so I am trying that method. Really looking forward to doing my heat treating tomorrow!

 

[stezann]

I went through a similar situation awhile back. I thought I was grinding off all the decarb, but I wasn't. When I finally did grind off all the decarb, I got the RC hardness I expected. I sympathize with you, this can be very frustrating.

I have had the same experience as Tom.
Consider that i also use PCB antiscale compound, nevertheless decarb it's there...if you normalize that's even more...at least more than we expect.
I use a EZE-LAP coarse diamond benchstone with water to clean the pieces after hardening...now my numbers are as expected and consistent within half an HRC point.

OOOOPPS, i replied only after reading the first posts...i realize now that the problem has been solved LOL

 

[Rick Marchand]

I've been watching this thread since you first posted to see if you revisited the sample coupons once you figured out how deep decarb can go. You referenced my name with the HQ-K and then basically stated that it sucked... lol.(I hope folks don't stop reading there:grumpy I would have commented but was on the wife's phone and kinda knew someone would suggest a bit more grinding. Make sure you aren't overheating the steel at the grinder. When I do my scheduled test coupons, I do my final cleanup on waterstones or DMT plates with plenty of water... it does make a difference.

I was kinda hoping you hated the HQ-K.... cuz I'd snatch dat up quick, yo!

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Hey Rick; thanks for chiming in. I was actually hoping to hear from you long ago because I knew from your postings that you had success with Houghto-Quench® K.

I do apologize if you feel I tainted your good name by linking it to Houghto-Quench® K and then stating that it sucked but if you read my postings I never actually stated that it sucked. In my first post my suspicion was that they sent me the wrong product and later on I asked if it does suck and if no one had actually ever tested the results. So I had a suspicion that it sucked but never stated that categorically and I like to think throughout all my posts I had an open mind and left the gate open that I was missing something which ultimately was the case. But again I apologize if you took offense to my post because that was definitely my last intention. I have also removed your name from my first post and honestly the only reason I used it was because I was trying to give credit where due.

And yes I am kicking myself that I could not revisit my earlier sample coupons especially out of curiosity about the canola oil and 9 to 11 second oil ones but my problem is once I discovered that the decarb went much deeper than I suspected and was the culprit I had already normalized my earlier test pieces to do further testing with. So basically all my earlier tests really don’t tell anything, other than the brine which hardened much closer to the surface just under the scale, because I didn’t go deep enough and the opportunity to do so is lost forever. Live and learn, LOL.

And yes I do make a real effort not to heat up my test samples when I am decarbing. I do use my belt grinder but I use it on a very slow speed with lots of dunking in water to cool.

I am actually going to heat treat my first W-2 in a couple hours and as I write this I am baking my knife at 250° to fully dry my furnace cement for my hamon. I am going to heat my quenching oil to 135°F which is about the middle of your range. One person in this thread stated the sweet spot is about 90°F. I’m going to stop referencing names to avoid upsetting anyone else, LOL. Obviously that is quite a bit cooler than your preferred temps. Have you done any experimentation with qench temperatures because 125°F to 150°F is quite a range so I figure from your experience it doesn’t make a lot of difference?

 

[Rick Marchand]

I wasn't upset... I thought it was funny. No worries.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Glad to hear I did not upset you Rick because if I had I would have felt especially bad after today because one of your posts really pulled my ass out of the fire.

After I quenched my knife I had a bend in the blade and I think it was from the fact that more clay fell off one side than the other during the quench. Anyway I forgot to check it while it was still hot from the quench so I went online to see if there was a way to straighten it during tempering and that’s when I found your clamping system.

I clamped it straight and that took about 50% of the bend out so I re-clamped it past my destination point and re-tempered and now it’s nice and straight. That is really a great system and I feel much more comfortable doing it that way than trying to straighten it out while it is hot from the quench because it would have been covered in oil and hot and I might’ve broken it. Very good system.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Well I finished my big W-2 grinding practice project. I don’t know if you call it a bowie or a camp knife or what but here it is. The blade is 3/16 W-2 and the handle is Ironwood with curly maple and Jatoba inlays. My hamon ended up being a total disaster and didn’t really show up defined but I am basically happy with the results because this was supposed to be for grinding practice and that turned out pretty well. I will play around with the hamon to see if I can improve them.

I just finished the handle shaping this afternoon. I took it to 500 grit paper and then hit it with a buffing wheel and it came out nice and shiny. I think I will put some kind of handle finish on it. In the past I have used Tru-Oil on some paring knives but after about a year the stuff is not holding up very well so I was thinking of putting some Varithane I have left over from my hardwood floors. I think that stuff is pretty durable.

Since posting this I found this thread:http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/773240-How-do-you-finish-wood-handles. So I think I will try another method than Varithane. Going to get some sandpaper up to 2000 grit and maybe some tung oil?

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

I don’t know why my Hamon didn’t work out. I went by Stacy E.Apelt’s directions here http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/663988-Clay-Quench-Question pretty much to the letter but it didn’t work out. Of course I blame myself and not the instructions just to make that perfectly clear. I do plan on trying to get them right in the future but I can live for now with that not working out very well because everything else seemed to go okay.

Here is a photo of my knife before heat treating with the clay on it. I put a very thin skim coat suggested by Stacy all over the knife and it did cut down on the scale. I don’t know why I didn’t get a Hamon but that’s something to figure out in the future.

Here is a photo right out of the quench before tempering. By the photo I thought I would have a hamon but to no avail, lol...

Here is one before I started shaping my handle and half way.

Again I would like to thank everybody who helped me get past my quenching dilemma to get to this point. I rushed the finish because I wanted to get it done before I had to return to work but I am going to go back and improve the finish. More to come!!

 

[Kentucky]

Wayyyy to much clay friend..You don't need more than say 3/32"-1/8" thick if that..Less heat,less clay..Heat treat at the bottom range of your steels aust. temp..We heat reat W2 at around 1460°..
With clay that thick your going to get a transition line at most..when you get that heat down and a thin clay you can almost write your name with it...Then later on when you get that down try just using heat control and no clay..That will give the most "cloudy" activity..

 

[Ghostman3]

I did this blade today. Still have to finish the handles but got a really nice hamon on it using fireblock caulk from Home Depot. 1095. Heat treated to non-mag and gave it a couple minutes and quenched in McMaster 11 second oil.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Thank you very much Kentucky for your advice about my clay thickness. On my next attempt I will definitely make it much thinner. And also I appreciate the advice about aust. temps needing to be lower. I did read that previously but only once so I didn’t know if it was true and I didn’t want to sacrifice hardness for something I wasn’t sure about but now that you have verified that temperature should be lower I will definitely follow that advice too.

I have also heard about getting a hamon without using clay and I assume that is from just quenching the cutting side of the blade? Definitely something to aspire to but I think you’re right about getting the clay down first. Thanks again for all your help; greatly appreciated.

Thank you Ghostman3; that is a very nice highly defined hamon, you definitely seem to have the process down. I wonder about your oil choice though as an 11 second oil from what I have read is too slow to get full hardening from 1095. I think I will revisit my testing. I don’t know if you read the first part of this thread but I started off testing different quenching mediums but didn’t realize how much decarb I had to remove to get a true reading before I normalized my samples so I never really got the numbers right. I think I definitely have to revisit that because I have Houghton K which is a 7 to 9 second oil and a 9 to 11 second oil from a local heat treat company and canola oil and I’m just curious. I will definitely be doing that in the next couple weeks depending on my work schedule and how much time I spend finishing my latest knife properly. Going to go out and purchase up to 2000 grit and some tung oil today.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

This afternoon I picked up sandpaper in progressive grits up to 2000 and some tung oil and did the finishing detail work on my handle. I refined the edges of my full tang and then sanded the wood up to 2000 and applied tung oil. I am very happy with the results and the oil really brought out the beauty in my woods. So I guess it’s basically finished other than over the next few days I will apply a couple more coats of oil. I give all the credit for my handle finish to the contributors of this posting as it had great information: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...h-wood-handles .

Now that I have that out of the way I will definitely get back to my different quench oil tests using 1095 or W-2 later in the week if I don’t work too much.