1095CV vs. SR101

[t1mpani]

i call that pretty good value.

So do I. My dear hope is that Kabar has a much better run of luck than did Camillus, and thus will be able to honor that warranty well into the future.
The stuff I was referring to were the few incidents of batoning through wood where you had a blade snap at the ricasso or severe chipping. Correct technique would have saved these knives but, the point made above does still stand: how many broken Swamp Rats have you seen? The same large segment of wannabe outdoorsmen has done equally stupid things with those blades, I promise you.
Honestly, in the case of these catastrophic failures, I attribute the difference less to the steel and more to the differential tempering that the Swamp does. Now, I have a lot of extremely well made differentially tempered knives from custom makers and I love them, but the Swamp really does it correctly in my opinion; in that instead of leaving the spine and tang dead-soft they're actually spring tempered at about 50-52 HRC, and thus will not take a set when flexed out of straight (unless you go really far), yet keep the advantage of a more ductile blade body that can take twists and shocks, particularly when in extreme cold. While FAR from a "stick" tang, the hidden tangs on the original resiprine handled Swamp Rats are notably narrower than the full, exposed tang of a Kabar and yet, even in the few EXTREME abuse photo shoots that I've seen on Rats where they are--as you say--intentionally taken to failure, I've never yet seen a failure at the blade/tang juncture.
Now, in my opinion, SR-101 has a *slight* advantage over 1095CV in almost every respect as a blade steel, but 5/8" tangs not failing where 1"+ tangs do--that's not the steel, that's the heat treatment. The one caveat that somebody might want to throw in is the difference in radiusing but I don't see anything in the Becker's design that is an inherent stress riser, so it's just the difference between being hard throughout or being springy in the section that doesn't cut, just like an axe. Were the Beckers differentially tempered, however, the manufacture would be more complicated and thus the price would go up, and the that would be unfortunate because they are such an absolute hell of a deal.

Beckers are very tough, very well designed, well priced, readily available (something the Swamp admittedly struggles with) and overall are ten times the knife that the settlers had back in the days when the wilderness was a hundred times the size it is now and traveling it was much, much more challenging. I love my Bussekin knives, and I love me some Becker.

 

[BushOgre]

Once again I say go with the frozen pudding blade.

 

[Bladite]

So do I. My dear hope is that Kabar has a much better run of luck than did Camillus, and thus will be able to honor that warranty well into the future.

KaBar is doing QUITE well. what few problems they've had with Becker complaints are responded to and fixed with alacrity. they are not slouches in that area. just see the forum posts where they, and the designer respond.

The stuff I was referring to were the few incidents of batoning through wood where you had a blade snap at the ricasso or severe chipping. Correct technique would have saved these knives but, the point made above does still stand: how many broken Swamp Rats have you seen? The same large segment of wannabe outdoorsmen has done equally stupid things with those blades, I promise you.

honestly can't tell you anything about swamp rats except that i only recently am aware they're not made by ESEE, but would wonder how many of their blades are out there compared to Beckers, what percentage are used, and not just collected? blah blah blah :>

quick google... http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/418286-Just-broke-my-M6-in-half-( graphic, with blood. there's one.

so my point still stands, in *30* years, we have a handful of broken knives. there's one M6 right there. probably more. not worth searching. i'm sure they're good knives, but things break. warranty is everything.

Honestly, in the case of these catastrophic failures, I attribute the difference less to the steel and more to the differential tempering that the Swamp does. Now, I have a lot of extremely well made differentially tempered knives from custom makers and I love them, but the Swamp really does it correctly in my opinion; in that instead of leaving the spine and tang dead-soft they're actually spring tempered at about 50-52 HRC, and thus will not take a set when flexed out of straight (unless you go really far), yet keep the advantage of a more ductile blade body that can take twists and shocks, particularly when in extreme cold. While FAR from a "stick" tang, the hidden tangs on the original resiprine handled Swamp Rats are notably narrower than the full, exposed tang of a Kabar and yet, even in the few EXTREME abuse photo shoots that I've seen on Rats where they are--as you say--intentionally taken to failure, I've never yet seen a failure at the blade/tang juncture.
Now, in my opinion, SR-101 has a *slight* advantage over 1095CV in almost every respect as a blade steel, but 5/8" tangs not failing where 1"+ tangs do--that's not the steel, that's the heat treatment. The one caveat that somebody might want to throw in is the difference in radiusing but I don't see anything in the Becker's design that is an inherent stress riser, so it's just the difference between being hard throughout or being springy in the section that doesn't cut, just like an axe. Were the Beckers differentially tempered, however, the manufacture would be more complicated and thus the price would go up, and the that would be unfortunate because they are such an absolute hell of a deal.

Beckers are very tough, very well designed, well priced, readily available (something the Swamp admittedly struggles with) and overall are ten times the knife that the settlers had back in the days when the wilderness was a hundred times the size it is now and traveling it was much, much more challenging. I love my Bussekin knives, and I love me some Becker.

yup. it's really hard to beat the value and availability and warranty on a Becker

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

" On the other hand, Ive alot of broken beckers. "



i'm well aware that Beckers are made of human made materials and can break, and have. many of the breaks i'm aware of lately were severe abuse. not very many over the course of 30 years, when you get down to it. ESEE has a gallery of broken blades too. quite a few of those blades were also abused or broken on purpose for the warranty.

Breaks that come to mind: a tactical team of 600 lbs of muscle using a TacTool to pry open a jail cell broken the tip off, they succeed too iiirc in opening the cell, and a recent hard use ultimate test in cutting car up also broke the first 1/3 off. mmm, some guy using his BK2 as a throwing knife eventually snapped it - as i recall - that's the first break of one of those - EVER. a blackjack era Brute with a welded handle arrangement finally snapped after 20 years when it hit hard steel. a couple BK7s and BK10s that had chips from batoning [incorrectly imho] through heavy knots; and i perhaps one actual break from batoning hard (and poorly). i THINK i remember a Machax from 25 years ago that snapped in half after it was used to pry debris and reset a tank tread - snerk. a patrol machete or two and a Reinhardt that had some chips from chopping frozen Xmas tree knots - you don't do that with an axe if you don't have to. i've never heard of an original DivTul breaking as yet. Someone did some hard use on new gen Magnum Camp, and fixed it readily - it didn't break. to my knowledge, none of the Neckers had broken (anyone?). mmm, nothing else is esp coming to mind. so, 30 years and more than 3 manufactures, and multiple kinds of steel and heat treats there. tons of breaks. yup.

still, if someone says they have a lot of broken beckers, i gotta see that... or if they meant "they have broken a lot of beckers", i'd gotta see that and know how. when a Becker breaks, it's usually notable.

besides, if you have a warranty as good as the one behind the Becker lineup, do you care if get a bad one? stuff happens, you get the 1% of 1% bad one, and it chipped out when you hit a rock or attempted to baton godzilla's toenail. you get a new one. *shrug*. i call that pretty good value.

I meant to say that I have seen alot of broken beckers just on various threads here. I have also seen many broken ESEE's and broken Swamp Rat's and even some broken Busse's. Any knife can break, but just on my time on this forum I have seen many, many more broken beckers than Swamp Rats. I think that 52100, with the HT the swamp provides is simply a tougher steel than even the best 1095 with the best HT. Becker's are tough as hell and so are ESEE's. If I could only own knives from either of those brands I would be a happy camper. BUT a swamp rat usually cost's at least twice as much as a becker and 50% more than an ESEE and with that increased price you are getting a tougher steel that will hold an edge longer. This is what I have observed from using (and abusing) many, many swamp rats and a fair share of knives made from 1095.

From my personal experience, SR101 is harder to chip, has a higher degree of flexibility, and holds a nasty sharp edge longer than 1095, even Rowen's 1095 which is really great stuff.

The OP wanted to know which steel was better and from the knowledge I have gathered from actual user experience, SR101 is a better steel. I have put my swamp rats though some hell and they always come out unscathed. I will try to post up a video of me sticking my Waki Rodent into a stump and flexing it. It will take a 35 degree bend like its nothing. I don't think any 1095 can do that consistently and return true.

I think in the end when it comes down to a knife you are going to get what you pay for. For the price, nothing can beat a becker. But if you want to pay alot more you can get a swamp rat and get better edge holding and increased toughness that you may or may not need depending on how you use your blades.

Beckers are great blades, and Swamp Rats are great blades, you just have to decided how much you want to pay for increased performance.

And I saw most of the broken becker pics on this thread about broken knives. I can't find it but maybe someone can and put a link to it. I suggest you don't look at it. It will give you nightmares.

 

[t1mpani]

KaBar is doing QUITE well. what few problems they've had with Becker complaints are responded to and fixed with alacrity. they are not slouches in that area. just see the forum posts where they, and the designer respond.

My concern isn't their intentions or honor, but rather that two LARGE, very old American knife manufacturers (Schrade, Camillus) have gone under in just the last few years, and I hope that Kabar is able to stay on its feet well into the future.

honestly can't tell you anything about swamp rats except that i only recently am aware they're not made by ESEE, but would wonder how many of their blades are out there compared to Beckers, what percentage are used, and not just collected? blah blah blah :>

Yep, lots of collectors everywhere, including on the Becker forum...I've seen a lot of gorgeously virginal blades here.

I'll see if I can't get Eric Isaacson into this thread, he can give us numbers data. Go jump into the boards at Swamp Rat's website or here on BF and search "users" to find literaly hundreds of pictures of well loved Rats over the not-quite-decade that both forums have been continually running. I've used the hell out of my Camp Tramp--long since stripped of its coating and re-handled (not because the original handle had failed, just because I wanted to).

quick google... http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s... No question, outstanding knives. :thumbup:

 

[Bladite]

based on "How many broken swamp rats have you seen? Ive never seen one break that wasn't overhardend/ had a manufacturing flaw. "

i believe we have gone from "swamp rat knives don't break" to cherry picking specifics. it's not worth it to me to find more examples - i just needed to find one (where's there's one there's six) - i'm trying to sell knives, work, look at knife porn, and shop for a house

the one i found is not differentially treated, shrug - that's not a criteria from above. they can and do break - all knives can. i'm sure they're good tough knives and have a nice warranty, are beloved by their owners, and hugged and kissed, and called George from time to time.

" On the other hand, Ive alot of broken beckers. "

so where are these pictures from the guy with a lot of broken beckers? still waiting KaBar might even warranty the one's they made.

and yup, Beckers break too. just want to see the pictures. let's go!

 

[cramsey3006]

I meant to say that I have seen alot of broken beckers just on various threads here. I have also seen many broken ESEE's and broken Swamp Rat's and even some broken Busse's. Any knife can break, but just on my time on this forum I have seen many, many more broken beckers than Swamp Rats. I think that 52100, with the HT the swamp provides is simply a tougher steel than even the best 1095 with the best HT. Becker's are tough as hell and so are ESEE's. If I could only own knives from either of those brands I would be a happy camper. BUT a swamp rat usually cost's at least twice as much as a becker and 50% more than an ESEE and with that increased price you are getting a tougher steel that will hold an edge longer. This is what I have observed from using (and abusing) many, many swamp rats and a fair share of knives made from 1095.

From my personal experience, SR101 is harder to chip, has a higher degree of flexibility, and holds a nasty sharp edge longer than 1095, even Rowen's 1095 which is really great stuff.

The OP wanted to know which steel was better and from the knowledge I have gathered from actual user experience, SR101 is a better steel. I have put my swamp rats though some hell and they always come out unscathed. I will try to post up a video of me sticking my Waki Rodent into a stump and flexing it. It will take a 35 degree bend like its nothing. I don't think any 1095 can do that consistently and return true.

I think in the end when it comes down to a knife you are going to get what you pay for. For the price, nothing can beat a becker. But if you want to pay alot more you can get a swamp rat and get better edge holding and increased toughness that you may or may not need depending on how you use your blades.

Beckers are great blades, and Swamp Rats are great blades, you just have to decided how much you want to pay for increased performance.

And I saw most of the broken becker pics on this thread about broken knives. I can't find it but maybe someone can and put a link to it. I suggest you don't look at it. It will give you nightmares.

Yeah, Bladite, I'm not seeing any broken Becker pictures either? It's kind of like the broken Kabar talk. "Don't get a military Kabar for woods use, it'll break!" How many people have broken one or know someone who has? Moose is the only person I can think of off the top of my head who's broken one. Sure, there've been a few over the years, but so what?

Of course, if I paid $500 for a Busse or $200 for a Swamp Rat or Scrapyard, and I broke it, I wouldn't post about it. I know that I'd get slammed by the Becker/Kabar or ESEE lovers. :thumbup:

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

Here is a thread that has a few pics of a broken Becker that broke during normal use not during a destruction test. It may have been a lemon but I have never seen a swamp rat fail like that and that is not the only becker Ive seen that has had a catastrophic failure while batoning.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...w-BK9-Failure!?highlight=knife broke batoning

Either way it was probably a lemon but just in general I think SR101 has a greater ability to endure stress. How many broken Swamp Rats have you seen that were actually broken during use? The only one I have ever seen in all my time on this forum is a chopweiler that had the tip break off.

Edit: here's some other ones http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/796990-Broke-my-BK-9/page2
http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=103695

and I know it doesn't mean much but the BK 9 breaks pretty easily in this destruction Vid. http://www.knifetests.com/page5.html

any knife can break but I have just seen more broken beckers than swamp rats. The swamp equivalent to the BK9 is the M9 or Battle Rat. I have never seen either of those broken. They are also MUCH more expensive than a Bk and dont come with a sheath. You get what you pay for. If you aren't stupid with your knives then you probably don't need the extra toughness of a differentially tempered swamp rat.

 

[Bladite]

Yeah, Bladite, I'm not seeing any broken Becker pictures either? It's kind of like the broken Kabar talk. "Don't get a military Kabar for woods use, it'll break!" How many people have broken one or know someone who has? Moose is the only person I can think of off the top of my head who's broken one. Sure, there've been a few over the years, but so what?

Of course, if I paid $500 for a Busse or $200 for a Swamp Rat or Scrapyard, and I broke it, I wouldn't post about it. I know that I'd get slammed by the Becker/Kabar or ESEE lovers. :thumbup:

actually, the Bussee and other "hogs" would bash you, and you'd never be allowed to buy another one enforcement through fear! that's the ticket!

 

[t1mpani]

actually, the Bussee and other "hogs" would bash you, and you'd never be allowed to buy another one enforcement through fear! that's the ticket!

That's just ignorance--people have posted pics of damaged (not usually broken, but there have been a few) Busse products on the boards without negative response for years. Usually, the response is more like, "Dude--you're a monster! Now poor Jerry has to fix it." There have, on the other hand, been people who've received serious talking-tos from the mods for sh!t-talking other maker's knives on the Busse forum, as Jerry won't put up with it. Refreshing, don't you think? There's certainly no requirement for you to be interested in them, but as one who freely admits in this very thread that he didn't even know that Rats were a part of the Busse Company until very recently, allow me to encourage you not to speak of that which you know not. Not saying there'll be any kind of consequence, it's just more honest.

 

[t1mpani]

Besides...my Camp Tramp's name is Emily. And I'll tell you, sometimes when we touch, the honesty's too much.

 

[Bladite]

That's just ignorance--people have posted pics of damaged (not usually broken, but there have been a few) Busse products on the boards without negative response for years. Usually, the response is more like, "Dude--you're a monster! Now poor Jerry has to fix it." There have, on the other hand, been people who've received serious talking-tos from the mods for sh!t-talking other maker's knives on the Busse forum, as Jerry won't put up with it. Refreshing, don't you think? There's certainly no requirement for you to be interested in them, but as one who freely admits in this very thread that he didn't even know that Rats were a part of the Busse Company until very recently, allow me to encourage you not to speak of that which you know not. Not saying there'll be any kind of consequence, it's just more honest.

now hold up right there pardner... a) it was a joke. notice the smileys. b) as long as it's not SHIT talking, but merely playful banter, there will continue to be paper wheel spinning death fights here ;> seriously. c) don't make me do lists! d) i don't care what jerry thinks, eh? he's not being bashed, and this is not his sub-forum anyway e) i wasn't bashing any knife, merely providing data about them never breaking. all knives break. can't stand when people on the internet are wrong. i'm not wrong in that. f) consequences? are you shitting me? oh my. honestly.

 

[Bladite]

here's a video of a KaBar Becker BK-3 attacking a Dodge Omni. they even manage to break it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSuZxLT8_iY

[video=youtube;QSuZxLT8_iY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSuZxLT8_iY[/video]

 

[t1mpani]

Nobody ever said they didn't break, they asked how many have you seen. Playful banter is fine (which should have been obvious since my Tramp's name is actually Kathy) but the "tyranny of the Busse cult" is goofiness that's existed on this particular forum for quite awhile, and I just want to make sure that those out there viewing realize it's a joke, which we've handily done with your rather defensive reply . I never said there would be consequences, in fact I was bringing it up specifically so my "maybe you shouldn't..." language would not be misconstrued as a second-rate attempt at a Clint Eastwood type delivery, which I'm sure you knew despite your desire to be cute. You're very correct in wanting to remove wrongness from the Internet, and honor your marching in that cause. Onward, Christian Soldier.

Besides, none of this matters...everyone knows that UC Gil Hibben bowles are THE greatest hard use knives on the planet!

 

[Guyon]

In the Busse forum, I never saw bashing of other companies or threats to cut off buyers, and I was a regular poster there for years.
Typical response to blade damage was, "that'll steel right out" and "give Jerry a call."

I don't post in that subforum anymore, but the Busse folks are still polite to me on the phone and are happy to sell me a knife.
We neither need, nor want a fanboi showdown here.

If memory serves, Cliff Stamp stabbed a BK-9 sideways into a tree, put all his weight on it and snapped it. Lesson? Don't use BK-9's as tree steps.

 

[t1mpani]

Point taken, Whisperer---docile biscuit returning to hibernation. *Samurai bow*

 

[Guyon]

I know I've made light in this thread (as I so often do), but there's nothing wrong with a good conversation about comparative properties of knives/steel.
Go to Ethan's place, and you'll see knives from all over. Why? He's a knife guy and likes making the same comparisons we do.

Let's just not let this turn into one of those "MY company is better than YOUR company" threads.
Becker/Ka-Bar and Busse/Swamp Rat all have their merits. You're not going wrong with any knife from these sources.

I've owned a lot of them, and I've used a lot of them. I mean all of them. Beckers, Busses, Swamp Rats.
Each knife offers me something a little different, and I've NEVER been worried I was going to break any of these knives.

Maybe that means I don't fight enough toilets and lawnmowers.

 

[t1mpani]

Okay, but my lawnmower is totally better than yours. Later I'll post pics of me batoning through rebar with it.


Back to knives, I'm sitting on the fence waiting for light to shed on whether or not I need a BK-5. I've always loved its looks, I'm just not sure on the design. From purely a weight perspective, I wish it was 1/4" instead of 3/16", but I've never held one.

 

[Bladite]

Okay, but my lawnmower is totally better than yours. Later I'll post pics of me batoning through rebar with it.


Back to knives, I'm sitting on the fence waiting for light to shed on whether or not I need a BK-5. I've always loved its looks, I'm just not sure on the design. From purely a weight perspective, I wish it was 1/4" instead of 3/16", but I've never held one.

it's meant to be one of the thinnest Beckers... for slicing, for speed. quite lovely really.

the tweener version is so light as to be truly amazing, coming from the sharpened prybar types in the rest of the line.

not really sure about the thickness with this one... i've handle some of the thicker pig-stickers, and they have nice balance (and THICK), but they don't feel like they can slash like the BK5 can. Fisk wanted SPEED.

maybe you can bolt two together for twin-bladed action too... it lifts, it separates...

 

[t1mpani]

Or I could weld the ends of the handles together and have a spinning dervish of death...

How much taper is there towards the point? Is it a distal grind, or mostly full-thickness?