12c27 stainless steel, anyone worked with it? and where is a good source in the US?

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Thank you everyone for the replies, it seems to have turned to quite a debate haha. I’d like to clarify that when I said I’m not looking for extreme performance I was not referring to giving someone a soft blade, or poorly made blade, I meant I understand that this specific steel may not be the greatest knife steel out there, and that it may be hit or miss with a forge heat treat, I would not take someone’s money for a tool I do not trust to perform well. As for outsourcing heat treatment, I’m just not interested in it, I like to do things myself even if it means trial and error, call me an idiot if you want 😅. I’ve come to the conclusion this steel is not available to me, and so for now I will sticking to my carbon steels, until I save up the funds for a heat treating oven. Appreciate the replies!
Not charging money for a knife is not a good reason to put under performing knives out there.

I have no beef with you, get some help with your heat treating, make good knives and it will pay off in the long run. Make poor knives and they will haunt you forever.

Hoss
 
Not charging money for a knife is not a good reason to put under performing knives out there.

I have no beef with you, get some help with your heat treating, make good knives and it will pay off in the long run. Make poor knives and they will haunt you forever.

Hoss
Let me rephrase, if I make a knife that I am not happy with with it will not leave my shop, if you'd like to know specifically, it goes in an old popcorn bucket with the words “scrapped” written on the lid, this bucket contains knives I was not happy with the shape, heat treat, bevels, etc… as well as the chunks of steel I cut off when doing stock removal. My heat treating goes well with the steels I currently use, but I will continue to experiment with other steels, because it’s fun 😉
 
Sandvik came to a guild show in the early to mid 80’s and gave a presentation on a few of their martensitic stainless steels. At the time, most makers were using 440c.

12c27, 13c26, and 19c27 were promoted as less expensive alternatives with higher hardness, toughness and much finer carbides than other popular grades. They are also cleaner with less impurities. Easier to grind, polish, with keener edges, what’s not to like?

Availability and lack of size diversity were definitely a problem. High minimum orders and end users not being familiar with the alloy led to its broad failure to catch on.

I’ve used a fair bit of 12c27, 13c26, and 19c27. I still have ~50# of 12c27 around here somewhere.

It’s a good steel but needs good temperature control for proper heat treatment.

Hoss
 
Sandvik came to a guild show in the early to mid 80’s and gave a presentation on a few of their martensitic stainless steels. At the time, most makers were using 440c.

12c27, 13c26, and 19c27 were promoted as less expensive alternatives with higher hardness, toughness and much finer carbides than other popular grades. They are also cleaner with less impurities. Easier to grind, polish, with keener edges, what’s not to like?

Availability and lack of size diversity were definitely a problem. High minimum orders and end users not being familiar with the alloy led to its broad failure to catch on.

I’ve used a fair bit of 12c27, 13c26, and 19c27. I still have ~50# of 12c27 around here somewhere.

It’s a good steel but needs good temperature control for proper heat treatment.

Hoss
Interesting, didn’t know any of the history on it! I guess the whispers in the wind I heard about it having an easy forge heat treat were just stories, unfortunately. Some things will just have to wait until I’ve got the spare funds for a decent heat treat oven. Thanks for the info!
 
You can get a large bar (1000x80x3) for 30 Euro and 30 Euro DHL shipping to USA from Eurotechni in France. If you are lucky it might pass without paying custom duties.
Shipping cost is just slightly higher then what I pay in Europe, but I try to include at least 3-4 bars of steel and some handle material. They have acceptable prices on micarta. With current conversion rates of USD to EUR it should be a good deal.
 
The ageism is more than a little bush league.

Once you're over 40, you kind of get it. At least I do.

I remember working for a farmer when I was younger and he told me he was going to live forever, and he suddenly got old at 40. I've noticed a strange change just in the last 10 years how much harder it is to take in new information and do anything with it. I'm a somewhat academic profession where you have to do a lot of intense study for about 7 years after college - like 5-10k hours worth. When you're young, you feel like you could do it. Now I feel like I could only do it at half speed, but after a work day, I don't have the ability to take anything in.

It's just reality. With it comes a lack of patience for things that don't fit in your framework. It's not entirely bad - the pattern with age goes from learning and adding to manipulating things you already know to solve problems.

We like to joke at work when we get someone fresh out of college and they're really strong at everything .."they can just absorb stuff into their head and do it......because they're starting at empty".

I don't have a job interesting enough for amateurs to experiment with it, or I'd probably have the same lack of patience.
 
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Why are some makers so excited about 💩 heat treatment?

Hoss

Usually because they're fairly new to knifemaking and have cheap/simple equipment and they're only just graduating from heating to non-magnetic and dunking in canola oil, and making any knife is an achievement for them and they don't even know their austenite from their martensite.

Interesting, didn’t know any of the history on it! I guess the whispers in the wind I heard about it having an easy forge heat treat were just stories, unfortunately. Some things will just have to wait until I’ve got the spare funds for a decent heat treat oven. Thanks for the info!

12C27 is popular here in Australia largely because of the reasons you mentioned in your initial post, also because it was once available here very cheaply after the company I used to work for bought loads of it at a very low price from a business in New Zealand that shut down. Also, it's a selling point for knifemaking suppliers here to offer an 'easy to heat treat' stainless that you 'can heat treat in a forge', regardless of the quality of the results.

I've seen a few people forge knives from 12C27 and 14C28N, it's not something I'd recommend and they're not typically makers with a great understanding of metallurgy or much interest in blade performance.

Sandvik's data for 12C27 specifies a 5 minute hold time which more-or-less would make it the easiest stainless to heat treat. If you can hold 1065°C in your forge for 5 minutes you'll get the same results as you would from 1065°C for 5 minutes in an electric furnace. But that's on you and your forge, it's not going to be achieveable in a small forge that blasts your blade with a direct flame. Hypothetically, a forge would also result in less decarb than an electric furnace. You're definitely better off using an anti-scale compound or 309 stainless foil wrap either way.

To heat treat in a gas forge I would use a baffle tube, use a digital thermometer with two thermocouples and verify that you are getting the same temperature front to back in your baffle tube.
Hold at 1050°C for 5-10 minutes, oil quench or plate quench or air quench, stick the blade in your kitchen freezer for a few hours, temper twice at 150°C for two hours. I think Sandvik's recommendations are 30 minute tempers.

AEBL, 14C28N, 13C26, and Nitro-V are all fairly similar alloys that tend to have 10-15 minute hold times and 1050-1065-1080°C austenitising temperatures.
To reiterate, if you can hold those temperatures in your forge you can heat treat those steels in your forge, but that's up to you.
 
Once you're over 40, you kind of get it. At least I do.

I remember working for a farmer when I was younger and he told me he was going to live forever, and he suddenly got old at 40. I've noticed a strange change just in the last 10 years how much harder it is to take in new information and do anything with it. I'm a somewhat academic profession where you have to do a lot of intense study for about 7 years after college - like 5-10k hours worth. When you're young, you feel like you could do it. Now I feel like I could only do it at half speed, but after a work day, I don't have the ability to take anything in.

It's just reality. With it comes a lack of patience for things that don't fit in your framework. It's not entirely bad - the pattern with age goes from learning and adding to manipulating things you already know to solve problems.

We like to joke at work when we get someone fresh out of college and they're really strong at everything .."they can just absorb stuff into their head and do it......because they're starting at empty".

I don't have a job interesting enough for amateurs to experiment with it, or I'd probably have the same lack of patience.

Suggesting that Devin's lack of acceptance of your anecdotal claims is cognitive decline or cognitive rigidity reads like the verbiage of a tacky politician and a ploy of desperation.

If you're some hotshot with a post-doc and 15 years experience, your critical thinking skills have not been in evidence so far.

Present your info and claims in a proper form with proper backup and you may get more traction than someone who comes in with their thumbs stretching their galluses saying, "Look at me." Make a YouTube of your process, do your testing scientifically, do your analyses, assemble the data, and present your conclusions. I've seen nothing so far but anecdotes and braggadocio.

Without it, you are just another BSer comes blowing in claiming some idiosyncratic ability to do arcane HTs that no one else can do. There have been many over the years.

And, if you haven't figured it out by 45 I doubt you will, but there's always the chance you may realize that there are plenty of people as sharp as can be well into their 70s.

Enough. I'm out. I have to go take my MetaMucil.;)
 
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Suggesting that Devin's lack of acceptance of your anecdotal claims is cognitive decline or cognitive rigidity reads like the verbiage of a tacky politician and a ploy of desperation.

If you're some hotshot with a post-doc and 15 years experience, your critical thinking skills have not been in evidence so far.

Present your info and claims in a proper form with proper backup and you may get more traction than someone who comes in with their thumbs stretching their galluses saying, "Look at me." Make a YouTube of your process, do your testing scientifically, do your analyses, assemble the data, and present your conclusions. I've seen nothing so far but anecdotes and braggadocio.

Without it, you are just another BSer comes blowing in claiming some idiosyncratic ability to do arcane HTs that no one else can do. There have been many over the years.

And, if you haven't figured it out by 45 I doubt you will, but there's always the chance you may realize that there are plenty of people as sharp as can be well into their 70s.

Enough. I'm out. I have to go take my MetaMucil.;)
It takes a long time to get going in science these days. Most top scientists I know are 40-75. There are young scientist and early career awards for people under 40. I know some people who are still going in their 80s and even one guy who is 100 and still doing research. When I talk to him I show some goddamn respect!
 
Suggesting that Devin's lack of acceptance of your anecdotal claims is cognitive decline or cognitive rigidity reads like the verbiage of a tacky politician and a ploy of desperation.

If you're some hotshot with a post-doc and 15 years experience, your critical thinking skills have not been in evidence so far.

Present your info and claims in a proper form with proper backup and you may get more traction than somoeone who comes in with their thumbs stretching their galluses saying, "Look at me." Make a YouTube of your process, do your testing scientifically, do your analyses, assemble the data, and present your conclusions. I've seen nothing so far but anecdotes and braggadocio.

Without it, you are just another BSer comes blowing in claiming some idiosyncratic ability to do arcane HTs that no one else can do. There have been many over the years.

And, if you haven't figured it out by 45 I doubt you will, but there's always the chance you may realize that there are plenty of people as sharp as can be well into their 70s.

I posted the only results i had in a chart. They were generally disregarded. That's fine.

Aging is not cognitive decline. Change in how the brain works is not cognitive decline, it's a change in how you manage from absorbing and manipulating new information (when you're young) to absorbing less and using a larger library of things that have become trivial to you by experience and repetition.

Cognitive decline is different. this is a typical change in brains over time, and it's well documented. Nobody calls yoyo ma a bad musician, but I'm sure he absorbs new material much less efficiently than he did when he was 25. it's life. Openness (receptivity to ideas, especially if new) also declines with age, and at the same time, positivity generally increases. A weird combination.

I doubt this combination of things is by accident in terms of how we got here over time. As in, the fact that we change from efficiently absorbing new information to relying on already stored information is probably a matter of efficiency in doing things that are proven reliable.

I haven't disagreed with anything that Devin has said. I suggested my good results (including those that are better than the published results from furnaces) are probably an indicator that there is room for improvement experimenting with furnaces. originally, i thought maybe there are some steels where the stock quality arrives in such good shape that you can do what I did and just get good results.

I'm well into the phase (at 45) of relying on what I've learned professionally to operate professionally, and adding to it at a lower rate. isn't that what we all do?
 
It takes a long time to get going in science these days. Most top scientists I know are 40-75. There are young scientist and early career awards for people under 40. I know some people who are still going in their 80s and even one guy who is 100 and still doing research. When I talk to him I show some goddamn respect!

I'd bet when he talks to you, he probably gives you a reason to. Science in academia is a strange topic, though - not too many older scientists are working alone, but they do take credit for work done under them (formally) quite often. this used to be common in business, and I'm sure it is to some extent, but I do applied mathematics work and things have changed a whole lot in 25 years.

Generally in mathematics, if someone needs to use some part of math as part of their work, we don't deride them for wanting to take simplified routes that may be good enough for practical purposes, but not generally correct without exception.
 
Separately, after looking up 12c27 here, not to question what the OP wants to do -that's their business. There's no real margin for anything in 12c27 based on the charts - it's kind of a tough road if you're going to make something and give a few concessions but the properties chart of the material doesn't really have room to give up anything.

I have an industry-related question for you guys who may have worked in industry elsewhere, but I'll ask it at another time and another place. The basic premise is this, though - when you're buying consumer goods and not something from a reputable custom maker, how much of the factory fodder is actually following the published schedules? Is the temptation to save another 50 cents in a mid grade knife too much to use due care?
 
I'm not inserting myself into whatever you and Devin are doing. I'm just commenting on the fact that a lot of older people can stay sharp mentally. In any case, none of my degrees help me much with knife making, I listen to people with relevant experience.
 
I'm not inserting myself into whatever you and Devin are doing. I'm just commenting on the fact that a lot of older people can stay sharp mentally. In any case, none of my degrees help me much with knife making, I listen to people with relevant experience.

If you're into scientific process, you could probably find some things that aren't published or well described. But you'd have to put the time in. I have an ulterior motive (it's not money, it's not ego, or anything like that) and it's kind of I guess semi-scientific. Except it's *not* to publish or describe things - it's sort of complicated. I'm trying to unwind why some things made historically are better than we'd expect and why things made now with more process control aren't. but, that's only part of it.

If I wanted just to make knives, especially if I wanted to do anything (including making tools for profit) I would find out what is hot and I would do it. That would inevitably be - for someone honest - spec and ad sheet chasing combined with performance. As in, if you made knives and you advertised bits about your repeatable process and advertised (if bos would allow) that Bos did the heat treatment, you have a whole bunch of credible little data points.

It ignores the whole menu of other things - for the OP here, I just don't see room for error with something that's super quick in a furnace, but that's just me. As much as getting the cowboy result is fun and you can just throw away a bad result if you're in my position, I don't see the chance of finding any bronze when the top of the market makes gold.

Here's the "cowboy" XHP knife that I made. I have bar XHP left over because I thought it would make a better plane iron than it does. I freehand ground the blade profile flat and I store it in my office desk at home and use it regularly until I get a furnace down the road and can drive the hardness up. No odd edge behavior on meat, bread, vegetables - but sometimes it's nice to see if it will fail - if it does, I can toss it.

linky - knife

this is fresh bread (relatively, it's a day old, but not stiff yet) - soft. I know how to modify the apex with a buffer and adjust geometry behind it to cover its sins, and it's awfully nice to use, doesn't roll, fold, and it will catch a hair.

I kind of thought there may be curious hobbyists on here -I see that there really aren't. I've been on here for a while but didn't necessarily ever see the maker's part of the forum because I was going up and down through the top forum lists and finding significant *use* of knives was tough.

Devin has spent most of his time throwing a fit about my posts because I didn't take his initial advice *yet*. I'm not that fragile- not interested in building consensus. I've snagged a whole bunch of useful stuff all the while - maybe not much from Devin.

And no slight to anyone else, one thing that hasn't changed is if someone asked me if they should buy a trick stainless knife from someone who does old timey work and heats in a forge, I'd say no.

And, yes, there are a whole lot of older folks who are sharp mentally. Reality would keep them from learning like they could when they were young, but absorbing something new and being open to anything isn't always necessary to add value. And a bright and relatively open older person is a lot easier to communicate with than an average younger person.
 
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Heat
If you're into scientific process, you could probably find some things that aren't published or well described. But you'd have to put the time in. I have an ulterior motive (it's not money, it's not ego, or anything like that) and it's kind of I guess semi-scientific. Except it's *not* to publish or describe things - it's sort of complicated. I'm trying to unwind why some things made historically are better than we'd expect and why things made now with more process control aren't. but, that's only part of it.

If I wanted just to make knives, especially if I wanted to do anything (including making tools for profit) I would find out what is hot and I would do it. That would inevitably be - for someone honest - spec and ad sheet chasing combined with performance. As in, if you made knives and you advertised bits about your repeatable process and advertised (if bos would allow) that Bos did the heat treatment, you have a whole bunch of credible little data points.

It ignores the whole menu of other things - for the OP here, I just don't see room for error with something that's super quick in a furnace, but that's just me. As much as getting the cowboy result is fun and you can just throw away a bad result if you're in my position, I don't see the chance of finding any bronze when the top of the market makes gold.

Here's the "cowboy" XHP knife that I made. I have bar XHP left over because I thought it would make a better plane iron than it does. I freehand ground the blade profile flat and I store it in my office desk at home and use it regularly until I get a furnace down the road and can drive the hardness up. No odd edge behavior on meat, bread, vegetables - but sometimes it's nice to see if it will fail - if it does, I can toss it.

linky - knife

this is fresh bread (relatively, it's a day old, but not stiff yet) - soft. I know how to modify the apex with a buffer and adjust geometry behind it to cover its sins, and it's awfully nice to use, doesn't roll, fold, and it will catch a hair.

I kind of thought there may be curious hobbyists on here -I see that there really aren't. I've been on here for a while but didn't necessarily ever see the maker's part of the forum because I was going up and down through the top forum lists and finding significant *use* of knives was tough.

Devin has spent most of his time throwing a fit about my posts because I didn't take his initial advice *yet*. I'm not that fragile- not interested in building consensus. I've snagged a whole bunch of useful stuff all the while - maybe not much from Devin.

And no slight to anyone else, one thing that hasn't changed is if someone asked me if they should buy a trick stainless knife from someone who does old timey work and heats in a forge, I'd say no.

And, yes, there are a whole lot of older folks who are sharp mentally. Reality would keep them from learning like they could when they were young, but absorbing something new and being open to anything isn't always necessary to add value. And a bright and relatively open older person is a lot easier to communicate with than an average younger person.
I’m not throwing a fit, I just know that you have no idea what you are talking about but continue to give advice.

You are suffering from Forged in Fire fever thinking that heat treating is a simple matter of heating steel up and quenching.

You have admitted to having lots of failures even more than your successes. That means that you have no idea how to heat treat.

Your work is so bad that no one will even pay you for it.

Hoss
 
Here's the "cowboy" XHP knife that I made. I have bar XHP left over because I thought it would make a better plane iron than it does. I freehand ground the blade profile flat and I store it in my office desk at home and use it regularly until I get a furnace down the road and can drive the hardness up. No odd edge behavior on meat, bread, vegetables - but sometimes it's nice to see if it will fail - if it does, I can toss it.

linky - knife

this is fresh bread (relatively, it's a day old, but not stiff yet) - soft. I know how to modify the apex with a buffer and adjust geometry behind it to cover its sins, and it's awfully nice to use, doesn't roll, fold, and it will catch a hair.
That knife is sharp and cut nice , I like it :thumbsup:
 
Devin has spent most of his time throwing a fit about my posts because I didn't take his initial advice *yet*. I'm not that fragile- not interested in building consensus. I've snagged a whole bunch of useful stuff all the while - maybe not much from Devin.

What Devin has forgotten about steel and heat treatment you will never know.

The OP posted this thread to get good advice from experienced makers and smith's. Instead we have to be subjected to your nonsense.

Your posts are designed to irritate and cause dissent. We call it trolling......go away.
 
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