13C26 Razor Blade Steel -- a Kershaw Junkyard Dog II Review

[Cliff Stamp]

... the edge of this 13C26 steel with the average carbide size of like 6/10ths of a micron as I recall will just flat out stay true to a good apex for good effective cutting for a very long time even at 58 Rc.

The primary carbide size is dependent on the heat treatment, you can't quote that uniformly for a steel. Specifically you need a high temperature soak to reduce them to that size (they dissolve in the austenite) and to minimal volume for high edge stability. This also gives maximal hardness. The carbide size is for example also very small (smaller even) on steels like 12C27M, but the edge stability is LOWER because they don't have the carbon necessary for hardness, see Landes work for more information.

What I'm saying is that it seems to me even the best tester would be hard pressed to know if the blade he was cutting with in a folder with this steel was 58 Rockwell or 60 Rc or 64.5Rc

If there were true, you would say the same about 50 HRC vs 58 HRC. Consider that carefully and see if ANYONE would support that you could not tell the difference in hardness between a machete and an ABS bowie as that is the size of the range you are talking about. This is the kind of nonsense that people like Thomas propogate with statements about 60 HRC being "good enough", the forums really don't need this misinformation.

Of course he has positive feedback, he sends out knives to people who are only openly positive about the knives and him in particular, restricts what they can do with them, restricts what they can say about them, and ignores the criticism and focuses only on the positive. If he actually wanted unbiased and meaningful feedback he would be acting in a totally different manner but that is not his goal. Lets not pretend it is a public service he is performing, he is here to promote Kershaw.

You want someone with an attitude for actual information. When the Military was being heavily discussed on the forums I was one of the few who critizied the lock (this was years ago), both before and after I had it serviced. Now when Glesser came out with the compression lock did he send it out to the people who praised the liner and had no problems or did he send it out to the people who were most vocal about problems they had with locks, and specifically Spyderco locks. That is the difference.

-Cliff

 

[Thomas W]

This is the kind of nonsense that people like Thomas propogate with statements about 60 HRC being "good enough", the forums really don't need this misinformation.

Of course he has positive feedback, he sends out knives to people who are only openly positive about the knives and him in particular, restricts what they can do with them, restricts what they can say about them, and ignores the criticism and focuses only on the positive. If he actually wanted unbiased and meaningful feedback he would be acting in a totally different manner but that is not his goal. Lets not pretend it is a public service he is performing, he is here to promote Kershaw.

You want someone with an attitude for actual information. When the Military was being heavily discussed on the forums I was one of the few who critizied the lock (this was years ago), both before and after I had it serviced. Now when Glesser came out with the compression lock did he send it out to the people who praised the liner and had no problems or did he send it out to the people who were most vocal about problems they had with locks, and specifically Spyderco locks. That is the difference.

I'll address this sometime Sunday.

 

[db]

Or thomas you could send him a knife to get him on your side, that seems to be what he wants. Or better yet, send a small Storm or JYD to me instead.
I promise Iwould give you an honest and as unbiased opinion as possible.

 

[nozh2002]

Thomas,

What do you think about suggestions I made in my JDII thread (which was most popular thread I ever started):

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458071

Suggestions are:
1. Additional clips for all four position (I'll be happy with one tip up lock side).
2. Thumb-stud or somethin in addition to flipper to open it gently.
3. Lanyard hole.
4. Choil on flipper not bump.

As you know, I can handle all of this myself, except #1 and this really prevent it to hold it place in my pocket permenantly. I get used to lanyard hang utside pocket to be able to take it of any time easyly, but if clip is near blade - no way I can carry it the way I like

I was always supportive to Sandvic13C26 it is nice to see it well recognized now. Is is time to try Sandvic 19C26?

Thanks, Vassili.

Do you have any date for that test run of 13C26 on 64HRC?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Is is time to try Sandvic 19C26?

19C26 is a high carbide stainless, designed to offer higher wear resistance at the expence of edge stability. The market is flooded with such steels already. I would rather you see more of the higher corrosion / stability steels from Sandvik and show how they can make quality knives as most people think they are "junk" as they are usually poorly heat treated.

-Cliff

 

[nozh2002]

It is known scientific fact that composition does not really make everything in steel. Even with best HT and same composition different steel performs differently.

Example: Russian ball bearing stainless 110X18MShD - same as 440C at high carbon content, but with ESR and VAR it is one of the best stainless even better then BG42 on my taste. Why because it was made by different technology and purification level is much higher.

Same for D2 vs X18MF ESR.

So Sandvic steel does not get their performance only from composition, I guess, but they have their swedish metallurgy behind. This technological difference is unfortunately unknow, so far.

Now:
this is 440A
C=0.65-0.75 Cr=16-18 Mn=1.0 Mo=0.75
this is AUS-6
C=0.55-0.65 Cr=13-14.5 Mn=1 Ni=0.49
and Sandvic 13C26
C=0.65 Mn=0.65 Si=0.4 Cr=13.0

What make it so different? Minor difference in Mn or Cromium? I guess it is not too much different to explain difference in performance - C balance everywhere similar and for 12C27 performance is also better then for similar steel.

So scientifically it is possible to assume that having higher performance of Sandvic steel in the 0.65%C class, we may also have better performance of Sandvic steel in the 0.95%C class. Probably, because difference is in the process of making this steel etc. And I guess it is worse to try.

It seems logical to me. Of course I am really not a true scientist - I do not have already answers on every questions and not able to label this or that around as scientific or not.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It is known scientific fact that composition does not really make everything in steel.

You need to look at magnitude of differences, statements like that are problematic as they are so vague they lead to misinformation easily. The composition of a steel is the major influence on its behavior. Most of the other things you hear are hype more so that facts. The big issue is too many company reps promoting steel that know almost nothing about the materials. We need actual facts, not just promotional hype.

There is a reason there are so many steels, because the composition matters significantly. If this wasn't the major factor then you would just have one steel, vary the heat treatment/manufacturing and handle all tasks. This of course is beyond nonsense. In order to get specific properties you need specific elements in the steel.

What make it so different? Minor difference in Mn or Cromium? I guess it is not too much different to explain difference in performance - C balance everywhere similar and for 12C27 performance is also better then for similar steel.

No it is not similar, I already explained this months ago :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425161

Look at the position of 440A and 13c26 and it is obvious they are very different and you can even calculate the corrosion resistance, carbide size/fraction, hardness, etc., as well as estimate toughness/wear resistance.

-Cliff

 

[The Mastiff]

Of course he has positive feedback, he sends out knives to people who are only openly positive about the knives and him in particular, restricts what they can do with them, restricts what they can say about them, and ignores the criticism and focuses only on the positive. If he actually wanted unbiased and meaningful feedback he would be acting in a totally different manner but that is not his goal. Lets not pretend it is a public service he is performing, he is here to promote Kershaw.

Promoting Kershaw knives should be something he does here. There's not really anything secret or even wrong with it. As far as guys like STR, and Thom Brogan goes were talking about guys that have established good reputations here for their knowledge and contributions.

I'm not as cynical as to see how either one would shill a knife, a not very expensive one at that, because they were given a sample or loaner. These are pretty decent guys we're talking about here. Cliff, please don't infer otherwise unless you have some anecdotes or evidence to show why we shouldn't trust them.

Personally I think getting feedback from users is a smart bit of business when making decisiopns on what goes to market, at what hardness etc. I would do it that way if I was Thomas W. No offense meant to you Cliff, or anyone else here. Joe / Raleigh

 

[STR]

Cliff test it out for yourself or don't comment about what you haven't done and can't personally testify to. I have no doubt that I could send you a knife and fool you with it. You could not tell one hardness from the other period and I doubt seriously if anyone could. We are not talking about machetes Cliff. Get with the program. Its a pocket folder and my statements test out based on use and experience. Have you cut with it? No you haven't and you haven't tested it at various hardnesses against each other like others have either so you have a lot of nerve calling me a liar misinforming the public.

Thom's comments to me were that the 58Rc was a 'Ringer' sent in by Thomas that was actually something other than the softer one of the batch he recieved. He asked me this on several occasions as if to be sure because it performed so well. Truth be told that knife didn't even come from Thomas. It came from New Graham and was old stock before Kershaw changed the H/T to what it is now. I later sent that knife to a friend of mine who tested it at 58.5 RC.

Oh and as far as this statement goes.

The primary carbide size is dependent on the heat treatment, you can't quote that uniformly for a steel.

Thats odd because people do that all the time on all steels, many of them more knowledgeable about that then I am. By the way, I got the average carbide size for 13C26 from Larrin's dad Devin Thomas. Its posted on his web site. He says nothing there about variances based on heat treatment. So take it up with him if you have issues with it. Its easy to find using Google.

If you think for one second that I'd tow a party line just because of popular opinion you do not know me at all. If the knife was crap I'd tell Thomas Welk flat out it was so. Ask him what I said about the Needs Work folder if you think I only give him positive feedback all the time, and I could go on with other stuff also. He gets both good and bad from all of us. It goes with the territory.

I find it interesting if not hilarious that you are so convinced this 13C26 steel won't work, shouldn't work and is not the right steel choice for the application while the whole time you are spewing that nonsense out folks all over the world are loving it that have actually used it in a folder. And then you have the nerve to accuse me of misinformation. I challenge anyone to actually repeat what I did and what Thom did with the knives he got and test out my claims. If anyone is spewing forth nonsense its you my friend. Over time your little cat calling is getting more and more distant and faint as more and more people find out about this steel on their own because people that don't know or even care about Thomas, or Kershaw or any of the things we have written here in posts have chimed in with reports about their knives praising it besides those he sent knives to or used in his testing.

The truth of the matter is Cliff that in the hands of users all over the world this steel is working in folding knives and people are very happy with it. Lets not forget the fact that Swedes are behind the technologies creating this fine steel. But I'm sure you will just say its because they are all misinformed and don't really know what they are talking about right? Do us all a favor and save your breath. Its not worth much more being said about it than that.

STR

 

[db]

I agree with The Mastiff, not only Thom and STR, but also most everyone tries to give an honest opinion when reviewing a knife. Sure there is some biased and that is unavoidable we are not robots. Accusing other people of slanting their reviews because the knife was given to them, when you receive free knives yourself and review them is pretty hypocritical.

 

[STR]

The truth of that statement is that if Cliff wasn't so full of himself and all the hot air he spews at Thomas he could have been involved in the testing with the rest of us but he would rather spend all his time being confrontational and adversarial in his posts directed at him here proving his point to make Thomas and Kershaw look like they took a wrong path with this steel rather than give a look at the knives and put them to work. As a result none of them, even the folks at Sandvik want anything to do with him because of how he behaves here and elsewhere. Its a shame really when your reputation preceeds you this way because he could add some real input here besides all the hot air if he'd just shut up long enough to do it but relationships and developing a steel with a company starting out on the ground floor with something new is less important to him than being high and mighty preaching the gospel of Cliff.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... test it out for yourself

I have examined HRC differences in blind tests where I didn't know the steels or the hardness. I know the size of the effect that range makes. I am also right now funding a test on exactly this issue where 6 identical blades will be hardened to different HRC issues and examined by a group in independent individuals who don't know the hardness values.

We are not talking about machetes Cliff. Get with the program.

Again, nonsense and misinformation. That range of HRC you quoted as being not significant is the same as the difference between a machete and an ABS bowie. It is the same between a frosts fantasy knife and a decent Mora.

Would you think no one could tell those hardness values apart. No, of course not. In fact Alvin Johnston had 1095 blades rehardened exactly to those size changes and had them tested and everyone noticed the difference.

1095 by the way is the same type of steel, very high edge stability and low wear resistance. He rehardened blades from 58/60 way up to 66 HRC and guys like Swaim tested them extensively, as did I and as did a number of working class guys - they still do as he does it now.

By the way, I got the average carbide size for 13C26 from Larrin's dad Devin Thomas. Its posted on his web site. He says nothing there about variances based on heat treatment.

Yeah, he knows that exists, Larrin and I have exchanged PUBLISHED papers on th subject. Anyone who says it doesn't depend on the heat treatment doesn't understand basic fundamentals of steels. That number quoted is also subject to variance in composition and even in wher you look at the sample in the steel because it is just an average of a few views under a microscope. It isn't accurate to a tenth of a micron or anything, at most you would say the carbides are about a micron or less.

... so who should people trust?

Obviously the salesmen STR and never the science.

-Cliff

 

[Dog of War]

.... Of course he has positive feedback, he sends out knives to people who are only openly positive about the knives and him in particular, restricts what they can do with them, restricts what they can say about them, and ignores the criticism and focuses only on the positive. If he actually wanted unbiased and meaningful feedback he would be acting in a totally different manner but that is not his goal. Lets not pretend it is a public service he is performing, he is here to promote Kershaw.

Cliff - man, after some of the personal attacks I've seen people direct towards you, I'd think you'd be the last guy to make a statement like that, disparaging to the character and integrity of not just Thomas W. but other posters here who I think have more than earned the right to be respected and trusted.

I've always considered you a friend here, Cliff, and you've contributed greatly to my knowledge. I admire and respect all the work and contributions you make, maintaining a website that's a terrific resource, and going to the trouble to try to help people of all levels of experience. And I'm sure you remember incidents when I was more than a little disgusted by personal attacks on you.

In fact it was reading and enjoying all your many 'real world' tests that got me interested in doing some of my own work, and doing it in a way that the results would really mean something, to me and hopefully others. So taking what I've reported on here: the results are the results. I hope you know me well enough to know that's true. Yeah, the steel could be made harder or softer, and yeah, because Kershaw's a business there probably were some business-driven decisions made in deciding how to make these knives.

But again the results speak for themselves, and I know them to be exactly as represented. Because I've described the work and tests I did, anybody can duplicate it for themselves if they don't believe me -- I learned the value of doing things that way from you, Cliff.

Don't we all have enough unavoidable conflict in our lives, away from our hobbies and personal interests? I certainly don't come here looking for more, and IMO the best way to avert these unfortunate digressions is to "be the change you want to see." Let people discuss issues related to knives, and keep their opinions about others motives and their character to themselves.

 

[STR]

Last time I checked I was still technically retired Cliff. If you don't think the steel works just stating your opinion and why, and leaving would be all that is needed rather than to continually pick away with accusations to me of misinforming people and directing your slant at Kershaw the way you do making sure to chime in on each and every post Thomas makes like you follow him around. Believe what you want to but the results I got with the knives I've bought with my own money and the ones I've been sent can easily be duplicated and have been reported by others. The differences I quoted in RC are less extreme than the imaginary ones you created in your head not to mention you have gone off to a whole differenct class of knife and tool in your head.

Obviously you think I'm just selling knives. I am not a knife dealer. Nor am I making any income from Kershaw or any of the other companies knives I write about here. Hands on is always more important than what can be seen or read on paper. Get the knives and cut with them. Not 1095 or 440A or anything else to side track this, but stick with the steel at hand. Use it or move on.

Some of us have used the steel in question. They are mine to do with as I please and for what its worth if I get knives I won't use or that don't work they get sold or traded right quick. I've kept these Kerhsaws and ZT knives unless I got doubles of some in other trades. They work. Kershaw has it going on and no arm chair professor can do anything to derail that but you sure like trying don't you? You just go on burning bridges because that is what you do primarily.

We talked about variables before. There are always variables and when a human hand is involved this is even more evident. Science is needed. It has its place. But it goes hand in hand with other variables that always come up with cutlery steels. Sometimes it isn't so cut and dry as it may appear on paper and you find out real quick that life isn't about black and white cut and dry easily discerned observation. Its got a lot of gray areas.

With that said I'm done with you.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'd think you'd be the last guy to make a statement like that, disparaging to the character and integrity of not just Thomas W. but other posters here who I think have more than earned the right to be respected and trusted.

DoW, I know this from direct experience as I have been involved with several of the people that Thomas sent knives out to and I know the restrictions placed on them in what they could say and what they could do. This happens in the industry a lot more than what people speak of.

I have myself for example been offered knives with similar restrictions and just refused to look at them. In the above, it looks like I was sending that across to note about what you said, I wasn't of course but I can see where it reads that way. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I was responding to the nonsense that to argue a point with vague statements like "It is well recieved by our customers." and similar. You know very well that you can take the biggest piece of overhyped junk on the market and find dozens of people with no effort who will rave about it so statements like that are meaningless hype.

Useful information comes from reports like yours where knives are COMPARED. The adjunct to your work is Phil's where he showed how low the performance of 13C26 was in regards to slicing aggression.

Now does Thomas cite this, of course not, would you expect him to, of course not. Does STR cite all those references which oppose him, of course not, would you expect him to, of course not. Look at how he responded in the above to FACTS provided.

Now did you reference it, yes, because you are attempting to provide information not propogate YOUR viewpoint. Very different perspective.

What you reported is what would be expected for comparing 13C26 vs higher carbide steels of similar hardness when doing push cutting tests. Roman and company have been doing this for years. Generally they will notice much larger differences because they are working in finer geometries, longer cut ranges and as well harder blades for the higher edge stability steels.

Note for example Johnston's comparison of 1095 at 66 HRC vs ATS-34 at 60 HRC in very low angles where the comparison was extremely lopsided. That is the actual true ability of a steel like 13C26, not a small benefit, but many to one performance. But in order to see it you need the steel very hard and ground very thin.

If you don't think the steel works just stating your opinion ...

How can you still fail to completely misunderstand even the basic fundamentals of a discussion when it has been repeated for YEARS. I was promoting the benefits of this class of steel long before 13C26 was mentioned on Bladeforums let alone Kershaw was using it. This is the same class of steel as 1095 (high stability/low wear resistance) and this was being discussed as a high end knife steel in 1998/1999 on rec.knives with specific user comparisons.

What I said about Kershaw was origionally they were using it the complete opposite of how the steel was designed to be used. They still arge given that DoW had to reprofile the blade to its actual optimal profile. In the origional profile it would get easily outperformed by a steel with a lower edge stability because the profile itself is inherently stable. I pointed this out to you months ago and you still don't get it. This again isn't OPINION it is facts based on published research.

We talked about variables before. There are always variables and when a human hand is involved this is even more evident. Science is needed. It has its place. But it goes hand in hand with other variables that always come up with cutlery steels.

Science doesn't seek to eliminate variables STR, it seeks to understand them. If there is no variation then there is no comparison.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I just want to add some perspective to readers here.

I've shown the shear number of knives I have bought in any given year before and anyone that knows me knows I spend a great deal of time buying and working on a great many knives. Look in my profile home page link and you can see just a small fraction of some of the more frequent jobs that come in.

Cutlery is something I spend a lot of time with and particularly folders. I'm not a scientist. Never claimed to be. I'm a backyard knife mechanic and I know enough about folders to zero in on what works and what does not for my uses.

If you could open my safe on any given day and look in you'd see that I have my choice of carrying many fine folders from customs to very nice Spydercos to BenchMades, Kershaws, Bucks, Striders, Chris Reeves, and many many others. If you want to believe I'm selling something to you when I tell you that if you stopped me at a gun and knife show and asked me what I had on me and it was a $30 Storm II in 13C26 you go right ahead and believe it. If you think my reports back about it are misinformation I don't even really care if you want to express that to me privately and why. We can go from there. I wouldn't carry it and use it more than any other knife I currently own if it didn't work. And I kid you not if Thomas Welk called me today and said you know Steve I really need to get that knife back, it would get lost in the mail.

I'm not suggesting that my view of facts is going to jive with a science point of view. I could care. If it works for me in my hand and requires less maintainance because it always performs consistantly over time it means more to me than anything else I worry about. Looks are unimportant to me, as is popular opinion.

It either works or it doesn't period. Judge for yourself. Its a small investment for any of these fine Kershaw knives. I don't expect you to take my word for it and really don't much give thought to that. I am also not suggesting that everyone that tries one of the Storm knives out will just love it. Keep in mind that mine has been thinned down by Thom Brogan for me as well as modified with a low rider pocket clip I made for it and a new thumb stud. But my point is the steel. I love this steel. Its my favorite stainless cutlery steel.

STR

 

[wwells20]

I'd like to add some info, on 13C26, to this discusion. I have a mini-cyclone and because of all the post from Tom Krien and his regrinds and also Gunmike's info on thin ground blades, I got inspired to try my own regrind.

I have flat ground my mini's blade to zero (0) with a micro bev. at around 10 deg. per side. I went so far with it, that it now has a recurve and it measures: at edge- .010, 1/2 up the blade- .080, to whatever the stock thickness is. (didn't measure the spine) The blade also stayed a little thicker at the tip. (around i'm guessing .040 from tip back about down 1/2" - 3/4")

The edge is very stable on cardboard and on yellow pine. On the pine I would cut into the board and then pry the blade to snap off the shaving. These were at least 1/4" deep and 1 1/2" to 2" long shavings. I was trying to get the edge to chip, it did not. I will run more tests and report.

 

[Thomas W]

DoW, I know this from direct experience as I have been involved with several of the people that Thomas sent knives out to and I know the restrictions placed on them in what they could say and what they could do.

Cliff I have time for a short response now, and will reply in full later, but you are so full of it when it comes to the above statement.

I have NEVER put a restriction on any of our field testers. I ask them to report what they find, that's one way we learn how to inprove our products.

It's not always positive, STR has posted on this forum a mistake we made on the back scale of the Groove, he doesn't like the scales on the Need's Work, and has publically posted such.
If he or any of them finds anything they think is worth letting the board about, they do. Why is that hard to accept?
He has had favorable experiences with 13C26 at different hardnesses, why call him out? Why call anyone out with regards to their real world experieces?

I'll say it publically right here, right now, "There are no restrictions with the field testers"!!! There, I feel better now.

Are you serious with all this, or is this some sort of April Fool's post gone bad?

Of course he has positive feedback, he sends out knives to people who are only openly positive about the knives and him in particular, restricts what they can do with them, restricts what they can say about them, and ignores the criticism and focuses only on the positive. If he actually wanted unbiased and meaningful feedback he would be acting in a totally different manner

Cliff, setting me aside for a moment, your above posts can really fraction relationships, you might consider that before posting more damaging words like you have.

 

[samhain73]

Ok, what other steel could be used for a quality $50 dollar knife? The 13C26 at 59-60RC is a drastic improvement over the 440A or 420 at 55-56Rc. Can this even be debated? Almost all of the reviews have been positive in regards to edge holding and wear resistance, and All have said it was great at getting sharp and maintaining that edge easily. And I don't know, But Thom is one of the sharpening guru's and definitely one of the guys I trust word wise about steel performance, and he gave it a thumbs up. So hwat do you want Cliff? Thomas to say "Yes, this steel sucks, sorry to use it, we'll go back to the soft, 440A"? No thanks, I much prefer a knife steel, that while not "scientifically optimal", is a definite improvement over the previous steel.

 

[C Ben Susrool]

With that said I'm done with you.

STR

Sounds like a good idea to me. :thumbup: