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Ditto, that's some great stuff DBH!!!
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
154-CM and CPM154
- Thread starter Tbmfish
- Start date
Ditto, that's some great stuff DBH!!!
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^^ Thanks for that info.
CPM 154 is a step up for me in every way. Tougher and less chippy for me. Almost reminds me of CPM S35VN. Love them both far more than 154cm and S30V. I notice a difference in performance but not sharpening .
CPM 154 is a step up for me in every way. Tougher and less chippy for me. Almost reminds me of CPM S35VN. Love them both far more than 154cm and S30V. I notice a difference in performance but not sharpening .
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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- Dec 23, 1998
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- 17,930
Surprised no one has mentioned ATS-34, which is identical in chemical composition and a great steel all it's own. I had a buddy knife maker back in the day(15-20 years ago) that used both steels to make small medium and large tanto fixed blades. He preferred ATS34 seemed to be a better steel with finer grain. Not sure how true that is, but it was his words. I liked knives made in both steels and I could not tell a difference.
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Cobalt
Platinum Member
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DeadboxHero
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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- 5,463
Thanks bros 
Also I stated ATS 34 was the original
I'll correct myself
For the record
Crucible 154 cm was first
Hitachi ATS 34 is the copy formula made to capitalize of the knife industry's dissatisfaction with Crucible (i.e price gouging and quality control issues)
The history behind these steels is quite muddled
So let's get in depth and keep the history alive
There was even a brief knife industry switch to Japanese Hitachi ATS 34 led by Bob Loveless in the 1990s
Lots of Spydercos and Benchmades in ATS 34
Heres a picture of a survivor!
a Benchmade Auto stryker someone was kind enough to let me photo.
Held up great
Back to the topic
Here is a great video about the Legend Bob Loveless before he passed away in 2010
This video is from circa 2005
[YouTube]iDJ6_Xq5KMc[/YouTube]
Best one of him online
He is very candid and tells all
you can really see the kind of man he was a staunch pragmatist, with a "too stubborn to quit" attitude that made him so successful
He means what he says and he's not afraid to call a spade a spade.
Pure gold
Worth a watch
He talks about ats 34 and 154cm at 08:56
Crucible price gouging, Hitachi to the rescue
Here is another source
From the BF archives February 2000
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/132730-ATS-34-vs-154CM
Lynn Griffin says that
"Bob Loveless was the major proponent of 154CM for knife blades. He felt that the quality control of 154CM had gotten bad. In other words, the quality was not consistant from one batch of steel to the next. He worked with Hitachi in Japan to come up with a similar steel, that would have better quality control. That is what ATS-34 is. Bob Loveless was not the only one to desert 154CM (for ATS-34), in fact most knifemakers and factories that were using it made the switch."
Then there was a switch back to 154cm at the turn of the century
Joe Talmadge elaborates with a quote from a Crucible metallurgists who talks about the 154cm to ATS 34 then back to 154cm : P
" I asked Crucible about this, and here is the reply from one of their metallurgists:
""Let me give you a time line of where this grade was and where it is
now.
Our steel mill is a rod and bar mill. 15 or more years ago, we did
not produce sheets of steel, but instead rolled thin bars. Thin bars
were the preferred material for stock removal blades. 154CM was a
bearing material produced primarily in round bar form for that market.
The cutlery end of the grade was a side market and since the stainless
bearing market is not huge kept the volume up. Crucible marketed this
grade primarily through knife supply houses and really didn't come
into direct contact with the knife industry.
One myth from that time that continues to plague the grade is that
154CM was vacuum re-melted. This grade was never produced with vacuum
re-melt technology. At the time it was air melt material. Today it
is melted differently, but I'll cover that later.
As the stainless bearing market continued to shrink, it became more
difficult to justify an 80,000 lb heat of 154CM, especially for the
smaller cutlery industry. At the same time, the industry converted to
using sheet product, which allowed lazer cutting and more versatiliy
of widths. Put all this together with Crucible having no direct
contact with the market and guess what, we were out of the business.
Take a note of how many supply houses carry sheets of steel. None.
A little over 10 years ago the distribution part of Crucible became
it's own divison. The number of warehouses doubled and this division
became very intimate with its markets. The Service Center Divsion is
not limited by the mill's production and can convert material using
outside sources (i.e. sheet products). With this in mind we entered
back into the 154CM, 440V, 420V,etc. business and intend to stay there
for quite a while. We dove back in about 3 years ago with the help of
one of the larger knife producers and have been getting better every
year. The mill still melts the material, but we stock the sheets in
our warehouse system for cutting into various sizes.
Now this brings us to the material production. Like I said earlier,
many years ago, this material was produced by air melt technology.
Today it is produced by the Argon/Oxygen/Decarburization process
(AOD). This is the primary way to produce quality stainless steels.
It is not as clean as re-melted steels but is about as close as you
can get and is much cleaner than 15 years ago. 3 years ago when we
entered back into the 154CM market we were concerned that the ATS-34
was cleaner than ours. We found just the opposite. They do not
re-melt their material either and in numerous tests with knife makers
and polishers our material was much cleaner. Based on our sales and
responses from our customers, the myth of the dirty 154CM is behind us
for good.""
Looking back 154cm/ats34 was "the" steel to have
A great blend of all the attributes that make a great knife in proportion to each other without any one attribute (I.e wear resistance, toughness) negatively effecting the next.
Very high end for its time when 440c was the only stainless super steel
Enter the CPM version and we have arguably the most balanced steel on the market
Fills a nice spot in between 14c28n and s35vn
It's great to see a come back with CPM154 finding a wider audience in a world of S110v and m390
Which CPM 154 won't hold a candle to but is tougher and quicker to sharpen
Haha personally I'm a bigger fan of M390 for small stainless knives
Also I stated ATS 34 was the original
I'll correct myself
For the record
Crucible 154 cm was first
Hitachi ATS 34 is the copy formula made to capitalize of the knife industry's dissatisfaction with Crucible (i.e price gouging and quality control issues)
The history behind these steels is quite muddled
So let's get in depth and keep the history alive
There was even a brief knife industry switch to Japanese Hitachi ATS 34 led by Bob Loveless in the 1990s
Lots of Spydercos and Benchmades in ATS 34
Heres a picture of a survivor!
a Benchmade Auto stryker someone was kind enough to let me photo.
Held up great
Back to the topic
Here is a great video about the Legend Bob Loveless before he passed away in 2010
This video is from circa 2005
[YouTube]iDJ6_Xq5KMc[/YouTube]
Best one of him online
He is very candid and tells all
you can really see the kind of man he was a staunch pragmatist, with a "too stubborn to quit" attitude that made him so successful
He means what he says and he's not afraid to call a spade a spade.
Pure gold
Worth a watch
He talks about ats 34 and 154cm at 08:56
Crucible price gouging, Hitachi to the rescue
Here is another source
From the BF archives February 2000
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/132730-ATS-34-vs-154CM
Lynn Griffin says that
"Bob Loveless was the major proponent of 154CM for knife blades. He felt that the quality control of 154CM had gotten bad. In other words, the quality was not consistant from one batch of steel to the next. He worked with Hitachi in Japan to come up with a similar steel, that would have better quality control. That is what ATS-34 is. Bob Loveless was not the only one to desert 154CM (for ATS-34), in fact most knifemakers and factories that were using it made the switch."
Then there was a switch back to 154cm at the turn of the century
Joe Talmadge elaborates with a quote from a Crucible metallurgists who talks about the 154cm to ATS 34 then back to 154cm : P
" I asked Crucible about this, and here is the reply from one of their metallurgists:
""Let me give you a time line of where this grade was and where it is
now.
Our steel mill is a rod and bar mill. 15 or more years ago, we did
not produce sheets of steel, but instead rolled thin bars. Thin bars
were the preferred material for stock removal blades. 154CM was a
bearing material produced primarily in round bar form for that market.
The cutlery end of the grade was a side market and since the stainless
bearing market is not huge kept the volume up. Crucible marketed this
grade primarily through knife supply houses and really didn't come
into direct contact with the knife industry.
One myth from that time that continues to plague the grade is that
154CM was vacuum re-melted. This grade was never produced with vacuum
re-melt technology. At the time it was air melt material. Today it
is melted differently, but I'll cover that later.
As the stainless bearing market continued to shrink, it became more
difficult to justify an 80,000 lb heat of 154CM, especially for the
smaller cutlery industry. At the same time, the industry converted to
using sheet product, which allowed lazer cutting and more versatiliy
of widths. Put all this together with Crucible having no direct
contact with the market and guess what, we were out of the business.
Take a note of how many supply houses carry sheets of steel. None.
A little over 10 years ago the distribution part of Crucible became
it's own divison. The number of warehouses doubled and this division
became very intimate with its markets. The Service Center Divsion is
not limited by the mill's production and can convert material using
outside sources (i.e. sheet products). With this in mind we entered
back into the 154CM, 440V, 420V,etc. business and intend to stay there
for quite a while. We dove back in about 3 years ago with the help of
one of the larger knife producers and have been getting better every
year. The mill still melts the material, but we stock the sheets in
our warehouse system for cutting into various sizes.
Now this brings us to the material production. Like I said earlier,
many years ago, this material was produced by air melt technology.
Today it is produced by the Argon/Oxygen/Decarburization process
(AOD). This is the primary way to produce quality stainless steels.
It is not as clean as re-melted steels but is about as close as you
can get and is much cleaner than 15 years ago. 3 years ago when we
entered back into the 154CM market we were concerned that the ATS-34
was cleaner than ours. We found just the opposite. They do not
re-melt their material either and in numerous tests with knife makers
and polishers our material was much cleaner. Based on our sales and
responses from our customers, the myth of the dirty 154CM is behind us
for good.""
Looking back 154cm/ats34 was "the" steel to have
A great blend of all the attributes that make a great knife in proportion to each other without any one attribute (I.e wear resistance, toughness) negatively effecting the next.
Very high end for its time when 440c was the only stainless super steel
Enter the CPM version and we have arguably the most balanced steel on the market
Fills a nice spot in between 14c28n and s35vn
It's great to see a come back with CPM154 finding a wider audience in a world of S110v and m390
Which CPM 154 won't hold a candle to but is tougher and quicker to sharpen
Haha personally I'm a bigger fan of M390 for small stainless knives
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2014
- Messages
- 3,051
I'd rather focus on the form and function. Trendy steels attract all kinds. For me the steel takes the back seat. As long as it's well heat treated I'll take aus8 and 440c any day.
Exactly. I'll go one further and take Aus8 and 440C over anything else. My experience with S30V (micro-folds, even at thick angles) makes me doubt there has been any large progress in stainless steels, and steel cleanness and heat treat vastly overshadows any steel designation number...
Gaston
DeadboxHero
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2014
- Messages
- 5,463
Nostalgia! nostalgia! memories through the glass.
A step to the right, and the blur we see past.
Yet, present times show lots of tarnish that looking back soon seems to varnish.
Gold is brighter with memories glass, yet all forgotten was the truth to the past.
20 years from now, progress will come.
Better knife steels, but only progress to some.
"CPM 3v!" some will shout,
unaware of nostalgia's clout
A step to the right, and the blur we see past.
Yet, present times show lots of tarnish that looking back soon seems to varnish.
Gold is brighter with memories glass, yet all forgotten was the truth to the past.
20 years from now, progress will come.
Better knife steels, but only progress to some.
"CPM 3v!" some will shout,
unaware of nostalgia's clout
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2003
- Messages
- 15,288
154cm/ats-34 I bought a knife from Camillus at a dealer close to Camillus .Advertised as ats-34 but blade was 154cm ?? So I asked the dealer who said they varied between the two depending on which had higher quality at the particular time !! Very interesting !
- Joined
- May 28, 2012
- Messages
- 3,189
Check it.
There is no nostalgia with stainless steels, since absolutely none of them carry the mantle of "traditional", and you can compare 30 year old 440C with 2001 S30V, and the newer steel will suck rocks...
Look instead at the attachment to Carbon steels: That's real nostalgia, especially since diamond hones have become more common...
Gaston
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2015
- Messages
- 1,169
Could you please explain further? I'm a little new at this and don't understand the connection between carbon stwels and diamon stones... also what is wrong with stainless that isn't S30v, it's great when it's sharp but I'm not a fan of sharpening it or ultra high carbon steels that chip (ZDP)
dkb45
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2012
- Messages
- 4,458
Check with custom maker Walter Wells if you want a liner lock made to spec in CPM154, well under $300 unless you take a lot of upgrades. Mine, when I get the money for it, will be around $250, for a custom made to my specs. Killer deal there.
Aside from that, here are some more from KnifeCenter and BladeHQ. Already filtered down for you.
https://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/...&style=&min_blade=0&max_blade=50&a=folder&s=1
http://www.bladehq.com/cat--Manual-...lade_material:CPM-154/sort:price_sort_asc:asc
I would advise staying away from buying Quartermaster knives. They look likely to not be US made (we can't say for sure, but is virtually nothing showing they are US made), so the validity of materials used comes into question. The ones I have had claiming to be in CPM154 seemed to perform like it, but I didn't use them hard. If you are absolutely dead set on one of their designs, buy used so you don't give them any more money. They have great customer service from my experience, so that would be the best of the situation.
- Joined
- May 5, 2013
- Messages
- 3,618
I am not a fan of charts, I like to try things for long periods of time and make conclusions based on my use.
(I can't agree more that S30V is porcelain)
The steels I have used the most (stainless) are 154CM/CPM154 and lately S35Vn.
Really hard to tell the difference honestly. (I could clump a bunch of steels into this category)
Non are prone to chipping so that is personally the most critical factor.
If you use 154CM and CPM154 back to back for a long time you may only notice what I have;
(This is where HT/HRC and geometry destroy my observations!)
CPM154 takes a finer edge and holds it ever so slightly longer.
S35Vn is a very noticeable improvement in terms of edge holding.
I am going to be giving CTS40CP a shot (because I like 440C and I have personally found that the PM process is a good thing)
I imagine it will perform something like the steels above. We'll see....
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2016
- Messages
- 11,261
The Hogue Ex-05 is a gem of a knife in a CPM 154cm blade. Their knives have some of the best fit and finish and attention to detail. Also one of the only production knives that comes with a true mirror edge.
154cm has long been one of my favourite steels of any type. I have not gotten the chance to try the CPM version but will before I die, I swear it. For what it's worth for whatever reason despite different compositions I find s35vn to wear and sharpen and act alot like 154cm or what I imagine cpm154 would behave like.
154cm has long been one of my favourite steels of any type. I have not gotten the chance to try the CPM version but will before I die, I swear it. For what it's worth for whatever reason despite different compositions I find s35vn to wear and sharpen and act alot like 154cm or what I imagine cpm154 would behave like.
Carbon steels all have lower edge holding than good 440 in my experience (there is a lot of bad 440 around), and especially they are worse in edge holding than Aus-6 and Aus-8, which seem much more consistent in performance than most 440. Aus-6 and Aus-8 are my first choices, even over 440C: The Japanese origin seems to make all the difference in consistent performance.
In that context, the only advantage of Carbon steels have is the ease of sharpening, and that one advantage well and truly disappeared when diamond hones became more widely available, especially what I see as the more "dense" more aggressive Dia-Sharp hones by DMT...
As far as 440C taking a back seat to anything, there was a very elaborate test done during 1999 in "Tactical Knives", all with dozens of purpose-built "mules" matched to exact specs for the most consistent comparison (how many edge-holding tests have you seen that used purpose-built test mules in various steels?), and 440C crushed everything, including very early batches of INFI (ground down from early knives?), two early CPMs steels (including CPM 3V and another whose name I forget), 154 CM, ATS34, D-2 and a slew of others including several carbon steels, which were all rounding out the bottom of the barrel...
The funny thing is that on manila rope 440C was ahead in edge holding by a huge margin, only D-2 being anywhere in the ballpark...
At the time (1999) ATS34 was all the rage, pushed and hyped to an extent that today's super steels can only dream about, and ATS34 could not even reach 440C's heels in that test...: I lost all interest in newer steels after that... Probably forever...
I am still trying to locate 1999 issues of Tactical Knives, not that showing scans of this 17 year old test will change any made-up minds... In the meantime, I can only laugh at people who look down on Aus-6 or 440B, especially since most of the tests since have been done on completely dissimilar knives, and none with precisely matched test mules...
I can understand looking down on 440, as there is a lot of crap out there, but looking down on Aus-6 or Aus-8 is downright comedy material...
Gaston
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2006
- Messages
- 5,613
We've been through this before Gaston. The article is not as described and you have no reason to keep posting incorrect info here. I even linked to to the thread here at BF at the time the article was printedhttp://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/769910-Oct-2010-Knives-Illustrated-CATRA-results-for-six-Crucible-steels It was 440V/S60V powder steel that "crushed" and only in abrasive wear testing. There was no Infi tested either. This is what, the 4th or 5th time we have gone down this road?
Aus6 and 8 are fine steels for what they are. I like them too. I recall how tough the SOG 9" Tigershark in Aus 6 was ( released after the SK5 version). If you like that steel 12C or 12C (mod) are good steels too. I have to disagree about there having been no advancements in the last 30 years though. It's night and day. The amount of different choices now is amazing and the performance is there for anyone who wants it.
Here's some results from the time you are talking about though this isn't an article in a magazine obviously.http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/edge.htm Wayne Goddard did some of the first tests I recall hearing about. Vascowear is the parent of Cruwear and the same composition. CPM T440V is 440V/S60V.
Please though, by all means find the results you keep referring to. We'd love to see them.
Joe
Aus6 and 8 are fine steels for what they are. I like them too. I recall how tough the SOG 9" Tigershark in Aus 6 was ( released after the SK5 version). If you like that steel 12C or 12C (mod) are good steels too. I have to disagree about there having been no advancements in the last 30 years though. It's night and day. The amount of different choices now is amazing and the performance is there for anyone who wants it.
Here's some results from the time you are talking about though this isn't an article in a magazine obviously.http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/edge.htm Wayne Goddard did some of the first tests I recall hearing about. Vascowear is the parent of Cruwear and the same composition. CPM T440V is 440V/S60V.
Please though, by all means find the results you keep referring to. We'd love to see them.
Joe
Last edited:
440C is nothing more than just a decent stainless steel seriously.
440C (Bohler's N695) and D2(K110) is the two most popular high alloy steel here because it can be found at any steel dealer.
These two steel price almost the same and require pretty much similar process at heat treating.
The D2 does require much more effort at finishing due to much higher wear resistance. Almost every maker here know the benefit of 440C is just corrosion resistance.
In our test D2 out cut 440C in manila robe test like 400%. Both steel are HT with vacuum furnace with cryogenic quench. The 440C edge holding is even lower than 5160 and 1084 on the testing.
Back on CPM vs Ingot. From my experience CPM-D2 is significantly better compare to traditional D2. The as-quenched hardness is 1 RC higher, finish much better.. you wont get beautiful polish with regular D2 but it possible with CPM-D2. The toughness seems to be better too even at high HRC. I would believe CPM-154 would have some advantage to it cousin.
440C (Bohler's N695) and D2(K110) is the two most popular high alloy steel here because it can be found at any steel dealer.
These two steel price almost the same and require pretty much similar process at heat treating.
The D2 does require much more effort at finishing due to much higher wear resistance. Almost every maker here know the benefit of 440C is just corrosion resistance.
In our test D2 out cut 440C in manila robe test like 400%. Both steel are HT with vacuum furnace with cryogenic quench. The 440C edge holding is even lower than 5160 and 1084 on the testing.
Back on CPM vs Ingot. From my experience CPM-D2 is significantly better compare to traditional D2. The as-quenched hardness is 1 RC higher, finish much better.. you wont get beautiful polish with regular D2 but it possible with CPM-D2. The toughness seems to be better too even at high HRC. I would believe CPM-154 would have some advantage to it cousin.