154 CM

[chalby]

I've read that 154CM can contain anywhere from 0-0.4% Vanadium. If true, I wonder if that would account for the differences in opinions about it.

I doubt it.

According to zknives, "As for the Tungsten(W) and Vanadium(V) listed in the composition. Most of the sources including Crucible's own datasheets do not list either one. However, Niagara Specialty Metals, one of the largest distributor does list both, as Max 0.40%, in other words can be 0, or anything up to 0.40% depending on the batch. I did inquire about the presence of those two elements, and the answer was that neither alloying element is present intentionally, more like trace amounts."

I tend to think that it's like most other alloys. Some people will always find fault with it, others can appreciate that there are better or worse out there and appreciate it for what it is relative to everything else.

 

[LimpCroissant]

Just checked the KME. It's set to 23 degrees, so I guess you could say it's 46 deg inclusive? Trust me, it has no issues slicing newspaper. It cuts easily and cleanly, and you can "wave" the knife thru it. It's possible there are more levels of slicing paper, or others' standards are more picky than mine...

Ya as others have said, you're at a pretty obtuse angle. I usually reprofile the majority of my folders to about 15-18 degrees per side on the kme. I like restarting from whatever edge geometry they put on it from the factory, and putting on what suites me better, however reprofiling is kind of a pain in the ass. Lately I've been trying to more just find what the factory edge angle is and go with that, unless it's really obtuse (which they often are), because it saves a lot of time.

But really, the main thing I wanted to say is, just because you're finishing with the 1500 grit stone, don't get mistaken thinking that there won't be any burr left. I'm always learning more and more and slightly changing my style and how I manipulate the edge. If you just sharpen how it says in the manual, without actively looking at the edge almost every time you switch sides towards the end, you'll still get stubborn burrs hanging around. You really have to know how to twist the stone to slightly different angles to hit the entire edge well enough to deburr properly. The stone will want to just lay flat, but only a very small portion of the stone is actually removing metal when you're on any type of curve or belly, you can compensate for that depending on how you slightly twist the stone, or by putting very light pressure on different parts of the stone holder. Maybe you already do this, however I just wanted to give you a few tips on what I've learned using that system. It's possible to get a near perfect edge on that system (very low on the BESS test), yet it's hard unless you have people to bounce ideas and techniques off of.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I've read that 154CM can contain anywhere from 0-0.4% Vanadium. If true, I wonder if that would account for the differences in opinions about it.

Don't put the cart before the horse.
The biggest differences between peoples scattered anecdotal accounts have more to do with sharpening and geometry let alone scattered uses that don't capture the full story. So, the scattered accounts are not due to trace elements.

If the TV isn't working you check to see if its plugged in before you start rethinking quantum physics.

 

[jux t]

Don't put the cart before the horse.
The biggest differences between peoples scattered anecdotal accounts have more to do with sharpening and geometry let alone scattered uses that don't capture the full story. So, the scattered accounts are not due to trace elements.

If the TV isn't working you check to see if its plugged in before you start rethinking quantum physics.

I did not claim that it did, I said "I wonder if..." No carts or horses here. I do agree that it's almost certainly a sharpening or geometry issue.

Still, .40% vanadium seems a bit high to be an unintentional trace element. Do you think if there was .40% vanadium, that some stones might have trouble sharpening it?

 

[chalby]

I did not claim that it did, I said "I wonder if..." No carts or horses here. I do agree that it's almost certainly a sharpening or geometry issue.

Still, .40% vanadium seems a bit high to be an unintentional trace element. Do you think if there was .40% vanadium, that some stones might have trouble sharpening it?

It seems a very small amount to me, and that is max amount. The potential volume of carbides formed by 0.4% vanadium would be insignificant IMO. That's just my feeling though.

 

[DeadboxHero]

I did not claim that it did, I said "I wonder if..." No carts or horses here. I do agree that it's almost certainly a sharpening or geometry issue.

Still, .40% vanadium seems a bit high to be an unintentional trace element. Do you think if there was .40% vanadium, that some stones might have trouble sharpening it?

Well it's going to be impossible to argue with preconceived beliefs of how things are thought to be working when that's not how these things actually work.

0.4% weight Vanadium element in the steel chemistry doesn't equal 0.4% vanadium carbide volume in the steel matrix.

The carbide is mix of carbon and the metallic elements in the steel that have a strong affinity for forming carbides with carbon.


0.4% wt vanadium element in the presence of other the carbide forming elements in 154CM is not enough to form its OWN carbide in the quantities needed to see improved wear resistance to distinguish itself from a steel that has 0.0% wt Vanadium.

There are other factors that play that are far more significant.

How are they sharpened?
How are they used?
How are they heat treated?
Water cooled grinding?


When you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras.

 

[NPT]

"But really, the main thing I wanted to say is, just because you're finishing with the 1500 grit stone, don't get mistaken thinking that there won't be any burr left. I'm always learning more and more and slightly changing my style and how I manipulate the edge. If you just sharpen how it says in the manual, without actively looking at the edge almost every time you switch sides towards the end, you'll still get stubborn burrs hanging around. You really have to know how to twist the stone to slightly different angles to hit the entire edge well enough to deburr properly. The stone will want to just lay flat, but only a very small portion of the stone is actually removing metal when you're on any type of curve or belly, you can compensate for that depending on how you slightly twist the stone, or by putting very light pressure on different parts of the stone holder. Maybe you already do this, however I just wanted to give you a few tips on what I've learned using that system. It's possible to get a near perfect edge on that system (very low on the BESS test), yet it's hard unless you have people to bounce ideas and techniques off of."

Yeah, stropping is something I've never done, maybe I should. I have had the same thoughts about when the stone goes around a cave, and to some degree, I try and compensate like you mention. I also generally sharpen to the factory angle. In addition to being a PITA to change it, if you did, you'd have a much wider bevel, no? Would that look dumb, or take way more time to resharpen, because the bevel is so much bigger?

I also get that the angle changes because of blade geometry, but that's something I've discounted, because this is just a working knife, as long as it cuts, I'm happy.

 

[tony281sc2]

I have a couple griptilians in 154cm I’ve used a whole lot while rotating between that and an S30V and a couple S35VN ZTs.
It’s not quite on the same level as S35VN as far as edge retention goes, BUT it’s not too bad either.
Everyone seems to be in love with 14C28N these days and IMO 154cm is much much better. I would say it’s actually closer to N690 and CPM-154 than anything, and those steels are decent in the edge department too.

 

[Knifearious]

Nothing wrong with 154cm in my opinion. For me at least there are some knives that just don't keep an edge the way I expect them too. I deal with this by sharpening at the end of the day, usually just using a strop. I have one knife that just will not get particularly sharp at all (a Remington Bullet Knife made by Great Eastern). I can get it sharp, but never scary sharp.

In any case, Benchmade contributes heavily to the same leftist politicians who want to remove our knife and gun rights, so that thing would go straight into the trash if it were mine. But that's just me.

154cm is one of my favorite Blade steels. Maybe it’s just because it meant a knife was premium when I first started collecting. It sharpens so nicely and holds an edge well. I can’t tell a difference from 154cm and s30v.

 

[Whitedog]

In my opinion cardboard cutting is not too friendly on edges. Those videos showing someone cutting up strips of cardboard all day long and still have a shaving sharp edge afterwards is phony . The trouble with most knives today is the blades are too damn thick . Thin those blades out a bit and they work a lot better.

 

[MadeOnABench]

In my opinion cardboard cutting is not too friendly on edges. Those videos showing someone cutting up strips of cardboard all day long and still have a shaving sharp edge afterwards is phony . The trouble with most knives today is the blades are too damn thick .

Thick blades definitely struggle to get through cardboard. Unless you baton them. Batoning will make sure your thick blade gets through that cardboard no problem!

 

[Chronovore]

I have a couple griptilians in 154cm I’ve used a whole lot while rotating between that and an S30V and a couple S35VN ZTs.
It’s not quite on the same level as S35VN as far as edge retention goes, BUT it’s not too bad either.
Everyone seems to be in love with 14C28N these days and IMO 154cm is much much better. I would say it’s actually closer to N690 and CPM-154 than anything, and those steels are decent in the edge department too.

I like 14C28N but mostly because of the Goldilocks balance and relatively low cost.

14C28N is definitely both tougher and more corrosion-resistant than 154CM. 154CM can have better edge retention provided it gets a good heat treatment. That's something to think about for budget knives especially. Some steels leave a bigger gap between expectation or on-chart performance and real-life performance. Chinese D2 is probably the best example of this phenomenon. 14C28N is on the other side of that. Besides the lower initial rating, it seems to suffer less from being run a little soft. Maybe it is easier to get right? It is a bit easier to maintain, even if it has to be touched up a little more often.

On paper, N690 is a little better and S35VN is a lot better. Again though, heat treatment matters. So long as it isn't total garbage, any of these steels can be a good EDC steel.