2 s30s compared

brownshoe said:
The results are meaninless because they do not have the same blade geometry:

"but the leek sliced easier since it had a more slender blade"

It's like comparing tangerines and tangelos, the steel is the same, but the blades are not.
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It's valid for those 2 blades showing what he wanted to show and the points he wanted to make....
 
Not sure what you mean, but there is a reason boxcutters have slim blades, and it's not just to save money on steel. A slimmer blade profile will cut more cardboard than a thicker blade...as did the leek.

But if his objective was to prove the premise that kershaw doesn't know squat about heat treat, then his test proves his premise wrong, and I agree with you. The test is good for proving Kershaw's heat treat of S30V is in the same class as Buck. But then we all knew that anyway :)
 
actually buck could show kershaw some tricks about heattreating. the buck had to work much harder to get thru the cardboard since blade was much thicker. kershaw on leek at s30 was very decent ,better than any of us thought it would do. if the blades had identical sizes the buck would have done at least 10% better than the kershaw. this is'nt my 1st rodeo i've been testing knives since the 70s. if kershaw followers had reveiwed the tests done by myself, knarfeng, & ankerson for the last 18 months they would understand that there is more validity to these tests than they realize at this late date. whatever your opinion is , you can set up your own tests for review & we will be glad to study the results.--dennis. the tests by knarfeng & ankerson have been critqued in detail by many of the most knowledgeable formites for many months. my tests on cardboard were usually within 10% of the results they did on sisal rope.
 
You can't make this statement; "if the blades had identical sizes the buck would have done at least 10% better than the kershaw" because they are not identical sizes thus you didn't do the test. This is supposition, not scientific results. Now supposition is only good if you then go and test the theory, but since Kershaw doesn't make Buck and Buck doesn't make Kershaw, you can't test your supposition...thus it is only a guess.

All your guesses put down kershaw, thus you have what is known in science as "expectation bias." You expect an outcome and design your test to prove the outcome. Science is dependent upon theories that can be proved both correct and false. Expecatation bias is the worst type of bias in science. It is also very common among scientists. The old "cold fusion" debacle was a product of it.

Your bias is so strong as to taint all of your results, but it is good to see you reported results that proved your bias wrong. Unfortunately your follow-up statement "if the blades had identical sizes the buck would have done at least 10% better than the kershaw" shows you cannot rise above your bias when your own test results shows your bias was mistaken.

None of the testing on this forum is science, just boys with toys but that's OK and it's fun :)
 
Ankerson said:
It's valid for those 2 blades showing what he wanted to show and the points he wanted to make....
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I agree, but (anyone is welcome to answer this) could dennis have
done this without spewing out flatulence to all the forumites that
disagreed with him on his "throw your Kershaw in the garbage can"
and other trollishness he dished up before the test and not to mention
spitting in the face of Thomas every chance he got?
 
2brothers said:
Why is the tip of the Vantage all gnarled up? Poor sharpening technique?
(3rd photo)
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That looks to me like the ink from the Sharpie-pen (see 2nd photo).


What I am curious in regard to is why cutting was not continued until loss of paper-slicing ability in each blade to give a demonstrative end-point for each knife.

Since blade profile is fairly different between the knives, each is truly being tested against itself, not any competitor. But if calculations can be constructed to determine a specific value- or ratio- factor for how 'thinness' of the blade (in association with distance from edge to spine) affects slicing performance, THEN one could compare blades of different profiles like these.

For example, in my field I've performed experiments on molecule production in various mammalian cell types within a tiny piece of tissue. For one such molecule, the majority of cell types produce a low level, such that the overall production of this molecule in the tissue is fairly low; however, one tiny minority of cells produces the same molecule at very high levels. By normalizing production levels of the molecule to population size of the cell types, I can accurately state that the minority cell-type produces the target molecule at levels 4-fold higher than the majority cell-types. What that means is, if the cells were in equal quantity, one cell-type could be considered 4x better at producing the molecule compared to the other.

Sooo, IF (and only if) Dennis can normalize cutting-performance to blade-profile (data we would ALL benefit from), THEN can he also predict comparative cutting-performance levels between knives with different profiles (e.g. "if the knives had the same profile, knife X would out perform knife Y by N%")

Agreed?
 
DennisStrickland said:
if kershaw followers had reveiwed the tests done by myself, knarfeng, & ankerson for the last 18 months they would understand that there is more validity to these tests than they realize at this late date.
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Just how many Kershaw products have the 3 of you reviewed Dennis? Any idea?

Here is the list of knarfeng's reviews. No Kershaws.
Here is the list of DennisStrickland's reviews. No Kershaws.
Ankerson's list is to frigging large to show here but he reviewed exactly one Kershaw product.
A Shallot in S110V. However he does have 6 video/reviews of ZT 0301.

testlist.jpg


You say Kershaw knives are trash but offer no proof. Other than your cardboard cutting of 1 sample. And it did better than you said it would.
 
2brothers said:
Just how many Kershaw products have the 3 of you reviewed Dennis? Any idea?

Here is the list of knarfeng's reviews. No Kershaws.
Here is the list of DennisStrickland's reviews. No Kershaws.
Ankerson's list is to frigging large to show here but he reviewed exactly one Kershaw product.
A Shallot in S110V. However he does have 6 video/reviews of ZT 0301.

testlist.jpg


You say Kershaw knives are trash but offer no proof. Other than your cardboard cutting of 1 sample. And it did better than you said it would.
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I have a bunch of Kershaws that I will be cutting with here soon in different steels so I do them as I get them to test. ;)
 
in fairness to kershaw all the kershaw knives i worked with thru feburary 2010 were very sharp but none had any edge endurance.the track record was so bad on the ranch & among my relatives & friends that we did'nt consider kershaws interesting enough to test for edge holding. one close friend whom was informed the medium i would be cutting stated the leek probably would'nt do 20 12 in. slices. we were all surprised at the leeks performance even with the bent blade. we do'nt arbitrarily just develop an opinion without a long track record of that product. any way i hope kershaw has improved & maybe further edge testing will confirm this concept. as a lover of knives why would anyone want to see products coming to the marketplace that are'nt good quality. dennis
 
Thanks for the test results. I hope you knew what you were doing.
Butt* I really dont see it as being accurate. The data speaks for itself. However, says nothing about edge retention as far as I can tell.
Either way I do enjoy reading reviews.
Even though I EDC a Spyderco Para 2 right now.. I still love and own Kershaw knives. Going back to them constantly.
In fact the sharpest and longest lasting edge I have ever owned came on a SG2 Blur. That thing was amazing. It would cut through a green 1" tree in one push cut. I wish I owned another.. Damn I miss it!...
Dennis, do you have something personal against Thomas or the company. Im not sure if you mentioned this. Can you Rockwell test the blades?
Hopefully in the future people can do reviews without getting chewed out by the gang.?
 
no where in my testing did i ever mention using kershaws in previous tests. my opinion was developed from the time period from 1985 to early 2010.if you review the comments i've made most have been polite & on the subject of knife performance. many of my knives tested earlier were rockwelled , some in 2 separate labs. a while back i mentioned the comparison was based on 64 cuts, a commenter asked why i did'nt make 640 or 6400 cuts. for any tests on this earth there are always many suggestions & criticisms. may i please suggest that all you weekend warriors set up your tests , do some work other than punch a keyboard, & let us have the results to examine. please do something constructive besides nip at the heels of contributors that attempt to futher alloy knowledge. thomas , if you wish to send one of your better factory efforts , i will test it & return to yourself unharmed. i have bought 3 kershaws myself , & will be tested & reported by another party when they have had time to put them to work. lets do some cutting & quit talking so we can gain some positive knowledge.--dennis
 
i know some parties are curious as to previous tested alloys. the knives were sog, cold steel, spydie, b.m. the steels were vg1, vg10 . d2, 440c, 1095, m390, m4, s30, cpm60v, & maybe others. --dennis
 
trimcut123 said:
Thanks for the test results. I hope you knew what you were doing.
Butt* I really dont see it as being accurate. The data speaks for itself. However, says nothing about edge retention as far as I can tell.
Either way I do enjoy reading reviews.
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Sure it does, for those two blades...

The results say that both are very good knives and would do well in ones pocket under real use and stay sharp.

That also means that the working edge hadn't even developed yet so the HT was good on both blades so both blades would cut for a very long time.

I have personally done extensive testing on S30V at proper hardness so I have a good idea what it will do when it's HT correctly and I know the stages of sharpness of that steel very well.

S30V is a great working steel when it's HT and tempered correctly.

That 50 cuts for each knife tells a lot more than you would think.....
 
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Dennis, I don't have a dog in this fight as far as brands go - have them both and would recommend either.

I would like to comment, however about the 'bent' blade on the Leek. What I see in the pictures is the liner lock biasing the blade to one side when it is closed - this is common with this type of lock. Maybe I'm missing something that must be seen in person?

And as a pre-emptive- I'm not a mouth breathing, keyboard stroking, mall ninja that doesn't understand materials or performance testing. I am an equipment and mfg engineer in a highly regulated industry. Please don't lump all forum members into one group ;~)
 
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knife is not only bent but has a lateral roll in it obvious even to my working assistant. the knife is going to be shipped to a formite whom can comment further if they desire. thaks --dennis
 
DennisStrickland said:
knife is not only bent but has a lateral roll in it obvious even to my working assistant. the knife is going to be shipped to a formite whom can comment further if they desire. thaks --dennis
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Based on this information I would say that mfg process and QC need some attention then. Perhaps the aforementioned forumite will take some photos showing the issues?
 
I just recieved the leek used in this test today. I can confirm that there is a slight bend to the blade. I don't think that it will affect my use of the knife and i hope to get a preliminary review up pretty soon.
 
I appreciate the mfg's with a forum presence. Thanks for hanging out here, when often there are diminishing returns, Thomas.
 
Ankerson said:
Sure it does, for those two blades...

The results say that both are very good knives and would do well in ones pocket under real use and stay sharp.

That also means that the working edge hadn't even developed yet so the HT was good on both blades so both blades would cut for a very long time.

I have personally done extensive testing on S30V at proper hardness so I have a good idea what it will do when it's HT correctly and I know the stages of sharpness of that steel very well.

S30V is a great working steel when it's HT and tempered correctly.

That 50 cuts for each knife tells a lot more than you would think.....
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Yes, but isn't that the issue there? To heat treat S30V "correctly"? I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the steel was rather problematic to heat treat. In fact, I only know of Paul Bos and Phil Wilson who heat treats it anywhere near Rc 60.

And I suspect the choice of steel has a little bit to do with local availability over imports. I can't really think of a lot of stainless steels that would offer comparable performance, is US made, and was available for a while. 154CM seems to be it, and I also see a lot of that around and it seems to have similar performance to S30V at the same hardness, though not as corrosion resistant.
 
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