chiral.grolim
Universal Kydex Sheath Extension
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2008
- Messages
- 6,422
I don't mind the discussion.
My assessment of their warranty is not "off" at all, they clearly state (as I quoted) that their knives will "most likely break if thrown". That is, of course, absolute nonsense. They follow it up with a declaration against throwing just about ANY knife, and calling people "idiots" - note, they are NOT just insulting people who might think about throwing an ESEE knife, but indeed ALL people that throw knives not specifically intended for throwing. Nonsense and insults. It is all right there in their warranty, not really a point that can be argued, not a matter of "opinion".
But if one is curious, one can investigate. Is there any proof that a 1095 steel knife, HT'd by Rowen to a soft/tough 55-57Rc and left with a sturdy spine and thick edge can endure the stresses of being used as a throwing knife? Yes, yes there is. And what is more, there is insurmountable evidence that many other knives of LESS tough steel or higher hardness and thinner edges can endure such use. 1095 isn't fragile at 55-57Rc, nor is it very "hard", nor are these knives slicers like what you see Phil Wilson or Big Chris producing - it's basically a Kabar, built for abuse.
Now of course the ESEE-owners are free to put whatever insulting, nonsensical stuff they desire into their warranty, it's their company, but, as I stated, it is the primary factor in turning me personally away from them and discouraging others from that direction. Why buy from a company that insults people, spouts nonsense, and lacks confidence in the durability of the tools being made for them?? *shrug* YMMV.
Here is what i would recommend to ESEE: mimic the respectability of Ray Ennis - I haven't owned an Entrek knife yet, so I cannot comment/compare the geometry of the design, but they appear similar in style and intent to ESEE but are ALL made from 440C: http://www.ennis-entrekusa.com/About Entrek USA.htm
If you are really worried about your steel being defective and thereby susceptible to failure from use that would not normally cause significant damage (e.g. throwing) then include that - "warrantied to be free from defect in material" - instead of insulting language in your warranty. Again, that's my opinion. I trust Rowen, I think that they should too. :thumbup:
I don't see an issue comparing similar tools with different price points - what is the problem?
1095 is cheap steel, 3V is relatively expensive, I have no idea the costs associated with making and then HT'ing SR101 are (it is not quite the same as 52100, different steel). Customers and indeed knife-makers might be interested in why they should pay more for 3V or SR101 over 1095. There is a performance difference - whether or not you regard that difference worth the price is up to you.
Plastic is cheap, micarta & G10 is expensive, but there is a performance difference - why buy ESEE over Becker/Kabar?
Flat slabs are cheap, sculpted handles are expensive - why buy Swamp Rat or Survive! over ESEE, or why buy special scales for the Becker or ESEE? Again, there is a BIG difference in ergonomics.
An injection-molded plastic sheath is cheaper than thermoform Kydex, but again there is a difference.
Perhaps most important in regard to the performance of these differently-priced products is cutting geometry. The efficiency of the GSO, at 0.020" behind the edge - more than 2X thinner than the ESEE - is substantially better in cutting performance. Consider, the first 0.03" of cutting depth would be about the same, but after reaching the shoulder of the GSO, the mechanical advantage of the primary bevel comes into play and it is full 10X more efficient than the ESEE for the next 0.03" whereupon the shoulder of the ESEE is reached, and the GSO continues to be thinner for a substantial distance thereafter and also doesn't have the drag of the ESEE's thick coating. A performance advantage like that is nothing to scoff at - it is not a difference in "sharpening", it is a difference in the profile of the primary bevel, the main feature of the tool itself. The work required to get the ESEE to perform like that... well, you might not want to, the steel is softer and less abrasion-resistant, you might ripple the steel with similar use at that geometry... but regardless, it would cost a user a LOT of time and effort to modify the ESEE to match. The swamp rat could similarly be modified, or one could buy the "custom" versions that are uncoated and thin behind the edge... for $220 without a sheath? Does that sound about right? Hmmm... that's a pretty similar price to this GSO...
Add to this that the thin bevel of the GSO makes for easier and quicker sharpening (with diamond, SiC, or ceramic, the most common abrasives nowadays) than the ESEE, coupled with the performance-difference of using harder, more wear-resistant 3V that requires less sharpening (depending on use) and is also MUCH less prone to corrosion and seems to give up nothing to 1095 in regard to toughness, you find yourself with a more expensive tool, yes, but one that is MUCH better designed and that is BEFORE you bring in the difference in the handles.
That's my point here: the GSO definitely costs more, so why buy it when there are cheaper alternatives? Reasons have been stated - quality, materials, design, performance. It may not be worth it to you. :thumbup: That's fine.
If you followed my previous GSO-5.1 review, or if you check some of my posts around the forum, you'll find that I too prefer the RMD to the previous GSO handles, especially the previous GSO-4.1. This is not that handle - the length and contouring have all changed. Have you held it? Please demonstrate with pics if you have. Do I prefer it to the RMD handle? I haven't used it enough to be sure. I like the RMD handle a LOT but I also really like other things about the RMD, it really does feel quite different in use than the GSO-5.1 despite the similar specs, it really feels like a much more compact tool and, as I stated, I have a preference for that size. The GSO is just a little bit bigger, but it's abilities make it seem MUCH bigger - it is a more efficient cutter because of the geometry, has a better "light chop", and the handle encourages harder use. The only issues I've had with the GSO so far were in tasks for which the blade was just too big, specifically skinning/butchering two roosters - I'd MUCH rather be using an Izula-size knife for that.
Regarding my opinion on handles, I made a video long ago showing how easy it is to twist the B1 in hand, MANY have commented on how slippery the handle is without modification, the poorer ergonomics of the straight broom-stick style handle are a matter of human anatomy, applying focused pressure to the thenar and hypothenar muscles that induces fatigue or injury more readily - this is not simply opinion, it is medical science. If your hand is differently constructed such that it finds a straighter spine more comfortable in knife-use that one designed to fit the human hand, then you may be worthy of research or in need of therapy. Yes, the Bravo 1 has a less comfortable handle than the HRLM and GSO-5.1. However, the GSO-4.1 compared to it in my review of those knives had almost the same handle, the only thing I preferred about the 4.1 was the rougher micarta. The B1 handle has a palm swell and rounded edges, it's much more comfortable than the flat-slabbed ESEE-6. The old GSO-5.1 handle was more comfortable, and this new one is another step up. :thumbup:
CG Ratmandu costs $175 from the Swamp right now, original price of the uncoated RMD-LE was $194 (shipping included for both, ref. http://www.swampratknifeworks.com/available-now-ratmandu-cg/ and http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/923946-Here-it-is-RMD-LE-Pic-and-Specs), add to either the price of a kydex sheath like what comes with the GSO = $45 (including shipping, ref. http://www.mashedcat.com/ratmandu-sheath/) brings the total price for a Ratmandu to $220 for the CG and $239 for the LE. Neither will come with the cutting geometry of the GSO-5.1 which costs $229 total including sheath and shipping.
So the CG RMD saves you ~$9, the LE costs an extra $10. I won't argue the warranty part but will state that I've never needed service from either but have found Guy & Ellie more responsive to e-mail inquiries. The wording of the Bussekin warranty is certainly stronger. Survive!'s warranty is more akin to Buck's which I have used and been pleased with. You once received a dull-tip from S!K which was fixed quickly under warranty :thumbup: I included the pic of the tip of this new GSO-5.1 with your experience in mind, as I would not have considered the tip of my previous 5.1 especially sharp (pic is near the top of the review: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...n-to-SYKCO-511-SRKW-RatManDu-Cattaraugus-225Q)
I would argue the same, but i want potential owners to be AWARE of the potential NEED for that right away. How many new Swamp Rat or other new Bussekin owners complain about the out-of-box edge on their knives? Many. How many are capable of resolving the issue by re-profiling the knives for themselves, or sharpening away enough material to get the edge where they want it? In the M&T section, a lot of people ask about trying to do this with just a stock Sharpmaker
Potential customers can be assured that their GSO knives will not be like that. :thumbup:
The "communication issues" I've come across have been that they don't respond within 48hrs to every e-mail they get.
Asking people to pay up front for knives = investment in a pre-order, I mentioned this at the VERY BEGINNING of the OP. They are very up-front about it, you can invest a certain amount of money and receive, at completion of the project, an excellent knife at a substantial discount. It isn't "luck" that gets you a pre-order knife, it is patience. Is there a SINGLE CASE where a S!K investor didn't receive his knife or his money back? I haven't read about one. What I HAVE read about is a LOT of happy investors and customers - either those with the patience to wait, or those who got them for the regular price or off the secondary market. It is only the LATTER circumstance - i.e. knives built and ready - where "luck" comes into play, since the knives sell out quite quickly.
No, S!K hasn't not been free of growing pains, but I have yet to come across ANY dishonest dealings with Guy (unlike MANY that have come up with at least one specific knife company that needn't be mentioned).
Maybe you should get one and THEN offer an opinion?
Tuesday, February 15th, is when S!K plans to open "regular orders" for the GSO-5.1 - i.e. orders for knives that are already made and in-stock, just waiting for your customization.
And if you want to talk about "luck" playing into getting a knife, try to snag one of Nathan the Machinists field knives. Or how about a Busse Ganza?
I look forward to when S!K has what they need to keep up with customer questions and time-sensitive orders. I look forward to this in-part because I get tired of waiting too
But I offer my support to a man and a company doing their best to run a great business putting out an awesome product :thumbup: I love my Swamp Rats (own two RMDs, HRLM, RS, R9, have had a Ratweiler on order for 4 months, and still own one Hog and one Dog though others have been mine in the past), but S!K gives them a run for their money.
My assessment of their warranty is not "off" at all, they clearly state (as I quoted) that their knives will "most likely break if thrown". That is, of course, absolute nonsense. They follow it up with a declaration against throwing just about ANY knife, and calling people "idiots" - note, they are NOT just insulting people who might think about throwing an ESEE knife, but indeed ALL people that throw knives not specifically intended for throwing. Nonsense and insults. It is all right there in their warranty, not really a point that can be argued, not a matter of "opinion".
But if one is curious, one can investigate. Is there any proof that a 1095 steel knife, HT'd by Rowen to a soft/tough 55-57Rc and left with a sturdy spine and thick edge can endure the stresses of being used as a throwing knife? Yes, yes there is. And what is more, there is insurmountable evidence that many other knives of LESS tough steel or higher hardness and thinner edges can endure such use. 1095 isn't fragile at 55-57Rc, nor is it very "hard", nor are these knives slicers like what you see Phil Wilson or Big Chris producing - it's basically a Kabar, built for abuse.
Now of course the ESEE-owners are free to put whatever insulting, nonsensical stuff they desire into their warranty, it's their company, but, as I stated, it is the primary factor in turning me personally away from them and discouraging others from that direction. Why buy from a company that insults people, spouts nonsense, and lacks confidence in the durability of the tools being made for them?? *shrug* YMMV.
Here is what i would recommend to ESEE: mimic the respectability of Ray Ennis - I haven't owned an Entrek knife yet, so I cannot comment/compare the geometry of the design, but they appear similar in style and intent to ESEE but are ALL made from 440C: http://www.ennis-entrekusa.com/About Entrek USA.htm
Simple, concise, no nonsense :thumbup: Confidence inspiring.
If you are really worried about your steel being defective and thereby susceptible to failure from use that would not normally cause significant damage (e.g. throwing) then include that - "warrantied to be free from defect in material" - instead of insulting language in your warranty. Again, that's my opinion. I trust Rowen, I think that they should too. :thumbup:
I don't see an issue comparing similar tools with different price points - what is the problem?
1095 is cheap steel, 3V is relatively expensive, I have no idea the costs associated with making and then HT'ing SR101 are (it is not quite the same as 52100, different steel). Customers and indeed knife-makers might be interested in why they should pay more for 3V or SR101 over 1095. There is a performance difference - whether or not you regard that difference worth the price is up to you.
Plastic is cheap, micarta & G10 is expensive, but there is a performance difference - why buy ESEE over Becker/Kabar?
Flat slabs are cheap, sculpted handles are expensive - why buy Swamp Rat or Survive! over ESEE, or why buy special scales for the Becker or ESEE? Again, there is a BIG difference in ergonomics.
An injection-molded plastic sheath is cheaper than thermoform Kydex, but again there is a difference.
Perhaps most important in regard to the performance of these differently-priced products is cutting geometry. The efficiency of the GSO, at 0.020" behind the edge - more than 2X thinner than the ESEE - is substantially better in cutting performance. Consider, the first 0.03" of cutting depth would be about the same, but after reaching the shoulder of the GSO, the mechanical advantage of the primary bevel comes into play and it is full 10X more efficient than the ESEE for the next 0.03" whereupon the shoulder of the ESEE is reached, and the GSO continues to be thinner for a substantial distance thereafter and also doesn't have the drag of the ESEE's thick coating. A performance advantage like that is nothing to scoff at - it is not a difference in "sharpening", it is a difference in the profile of the primary bevel, the main feature of the tool itself. The work required to get the ESEE to perform like that... well, you might not want to, the steel is softer and less abrasion-resistant, you might ripple the steel with similar use at that geometry... but regardless, it would cost a user a LOT of time and effort to modify the ESEE to match. The swamp rat could similarly be modified, or one could buy the "custom" versions that are uncoated and thin behind the edge... for $220 without a sheath? Does that sound about right? Hmmm... that's a pretty similar price to this GSO...
Add to this that the thin bevel of the GSO makes for easier and quicker sharpening (with diamond, SiC, or ceramic, the most common abrasives nowadays) than the ESEE, coupled with the performance-difference of using harder, more wear-resistant 3V that requires less sharpening (depending on use) and is also MUCH less prone to corrosion and seems to give up nothing to 1095 in regard to toughness, you find yourself with a more expensive tool, yes, but one that is MUCH better designed and that is BEFORE you bring in the difference in the handles.
That's my point here: the GSO definitely costs more, so why buy it when there are cheaper alternatives? Reasons have been stated - quality, materials, design, performance. It may not be worth it to you. :thumbup: That's fine.
If you followed my previous GSO-5.1 review, or if you check some of my posts around the forum, you'll find that I too prefer the RMD to the previous GSO handles, especially the previous GSO-4.1. This is not that handle - the length and contouring have all changed. Have you held it? Please demonstrate with pics if you have. Do I prefer it to the RMD handle? I haven't used it enough to be sure. I like the RMD handle a LOT but I also really like other things about the RMD, it really does feel quite different in use than the GSO-5.1 despite the similar specs, it really feels like a much more compact tool and, as I stated, I have a preference for that size. The GSO is just a little bit bigger, but it's abilities make it seem MUCH bigger - it is a more efficient cutter because of the geometry, has a better "light chop", and the handle encourages harder use. The only issues I've had with the GSO so far were in tasks for which the blade was just too big, specifically skinning/butchering two roosters - I'd MUCH rather be using an Izula-size knife for that.
Regarding my opinion on handles, I made a video long ago showing how easy it is to twist the B1 in hand, MANY have commented on how slippery the handle is without modification, the poorer ergonomics of the straight broom-stick style handle are a matter of human anatomy, applying focused pressure to the thenar and hypothenar muscles that induces fatigue or injury more readily - this is not simply opinion, it is medical science. If your hand is differently constructed such that it finds a straighter spine more comfortable in knife-use that one designed to fit the human hand, then you may be worthy of research or in need of therapy. Yes, the Bravo 1 has a less comfortable handle than the HRLM and GSO-5.1. However, the GSO-4.1 compared to it in my review of those knives had almost the same handle, the only thing I preferred about the 4.1 was the rougher micarta. The B1 handle has a palm swell and rounded edges, it's much more comfortable than the flat-slabbed ESEE-6. The old GSO-5.1 handle was more comfortable, and this new one is another step up. :thumbup:
CG Ratmandu costs $175 from the Swamp right now, original price of the uncoated RMD-LE was $194 (shipping included for both, ref. http://www.swampratknifeworks.com/available-now-ratmandu-cg/ and http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/923946-Here-it-is-RMD-LE-Pic-and-Specs), add to either the price of a kydex sheath like what comes with the GSO = $45 (including shipping, ref. http://www.mashedcat.com/ratmandu-sheath/) brings the total price for a Ratmandu to $220 for the CG and $239 for the LE. Neither will come with the cutting geometry of the GSO-5.1 which costs $229 total including sheath and shipping.
So the CG RMD saves you ~$9, the LE costs an extra $10. I won't argue the warranty part but will state that I've never needed service from either but have found Guy & Ellie more responsive to e-mail inquiries. The wording of the Bussekin warranty is certainly stronger. Survive!'s warranty is more akin to Buck's which I have used and been pleased with. You once received a dull-tip from S!K which was fixed quickly under warranty :thumbup: I included the pic of the tip of this new GSO-5.1 with your experience in mind, as I would not have considered the tip of my previous 5.1 especially sharp (pic is near the top of the review: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...n-to-SYKCO-511-SRKW-RatManDu-Cattaraugus-225Q)
I would argue the same, but i want potential owners to be AWARE of the potential NEED for that right away. How many new Swamp Rat or other new Bussekin owners complain about the out-of-box edge on their knives? Many. How many are capable of resolving the issue by re-profiling the knives for themselves, or sharpening away enough material to get the edge where they want it? In the M&T section, a lot of people ask about trying to do this with just a stock Sharpmaker
Potential customers can be assured that their GSO knives will not be like that. :thumbup:The "communication issues" I've come across have been that they don't respond within 48hrs to every e-mail they get.
Asking people to pay up front for knives = investment in a pre-order, I mentioned this at the VERY BEGINNING of the OP. They are very up-front about it, you can invest a certain amount of money and receive, at completion of the project, an excellent knife at a substantial discount. It isn't "luck" that gets you a pre-order knife, it is patience. Is there a SINGLE CASE where a S!K investor didn't receive his knife or his money back? I haven't read about one. What I HAVE read about is a LOT of happy investors and customers - either those with the patience to wait, or those who got them for the regular price or off the secondary market. It is only the LATTER circumstance - i.e. knives built and ready - where "luck" comes into play, since the knives sell out quite quickly.
No, S!K hasn't not been free of growing pains, but I have yet to come across ANY dishonest dealings with Guy (unlike MANY that have come up with at least one specific knife company that needn't be mentioned).
Maybe you should get one and THEN offer an opinion?
Tuesday, February 15th, is when S!K plans to open "regular orders" for the GSO-5.1 - i.e. orders for knives that are already made and in-stock, just waiting for your customization.And if you want to talk about "luck" playing into getting a knife, try to snag one of Nathan the Machinists field knives. Or how about a Busse Ganza?
I look forward to when S!K has what they need to keep up with customer questions and time-sensitive orders. I look forward to this in-part because I get tired of waiting too
But I offer my support to a man and a company doing their best to run a great business putting out an awesome product :thumbup: I love my Swamp Rats (own two RMDs, HRLM, RS, R9, have had a Ratweiler on order for 4 months, and still own one Hog and one Dog though others have been mine in the past), but S!K gives them a run for their money.
I recommend the notch if you don't intend to carry a separate striker... or, y'know, matches or a lighter 
(I prefer to work bare-handed with knives). 
