2020 prices

BMCGear said:
MAP sucks and it kills the free market. It benefits no one but the dealer. It is their insurance.
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I'm okay with the idea of trying to protect dealers, we do not live in an entirely free market and without protective measures companies like amazon would easily dominate which is not an ideal market place especially for a hobby like this where amazon could work against us in the future. Not having cool sales sucks but I think protecting dealers is worth it. The problem I have is these continuous increases of MAP which i don't see the point in since apparently Spyderco is making the same amount of money regardless. The prices at amazon are already dead even to the dealers so again i do not see the point.
 
Messer Meister said:
I'm okay with the idea of trying to protect dealers, we do not live in an entirely free market and without protective measures companies like amazon would easily dominate which is not an ideal market place especially for a hobby like this where amazon could work against us in the future. Not having cool sales sucks but I think protecting dealers is worth it. The problem I have is these continuous increases of MAP which i don't see the point in since apparently Spyderco is making the same amount of money regardless. The prices at amazon are already dead even to the dealers so again i do not see the point.
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MAP is "advertised" pricing. In music instruments I'm able to walk into a shop or send an email and get a deal on an instrument that's not advertised. I once emailed an online company and said my local guy can do this - what can you do? They could come down but would not beat the local price. Online dealers report that the knife companies make them sign an agreement to not offer the knife below MAP. So this isn't advertised pricing being affected but pricing in general. Fixed pricing isn't good for the consumer - competition is.

Many online dealers do not even price match today. DLT no longer does it and neither does Knifeworks. Competition is a good thing for the consumer but it seems to be going away.

I'm not advocating for a 100% free market but this is getting out of hand.
 
rxavage said:
This is what happens when everyone in the supply chain feels entitled to 25% plus profit, from the manufacturer->distributer->wholesaler->retailer. We end up paying twice the amount we should.
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The people who need to seriously start voting with their wallets are the hardcore collectors, they are like piggy banks to these companies and i'm sure if even they started buying less it would be noticed.
on_the_edge said:
Why not? You should. Seriously. There are a lot of positives to it. :thumbsup:
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Problem is our economy itself is not an entirely free market even in the US, it has to come top down not bottom up.
 
Messer Meister said:
The people who need to seriously start voting with their wallets are the hardcore collectors, they are like piggy banks to these companies and i'm sure if even they started buying less it would be noticed.

Problem is our economy itself is not an entirely free market even in the US, it has to come top down not bottom up.
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I'm not sure what you are referencing. Are you advocating for trickle down economics? If so, I can't say that I am a fan. That topic in itself is a discussion for another thread though. I am simply saying that competition in the marketplace is a very good thing. Yes, some businesses will perish at the hands of others, but it has always been that way.
 
on_the_edge said:
Why not? You should. Seriously. There are a lot of positives to it. :thumbsup:
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The fear stated above that I was addressing was large corporations being able to undercut the smaller guy and ultimately driving competition away.
 
on_the_edge said:
I'm not sure what you are referencing. Are you advocating for trickle down economics? If so, I can't say that I am a fan. That topic in itself is a discussion for another thread though. I am simply saying that competition in the marketplace is a very good thing. Yes, some businesses will perish at the hands of others, but it has always been that way.
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I didn't mean top down from a class perspective but rather in regards to government and leadership. I'm not advocating for anything , i'm saying that the government itself would need to allow for a free market in order for it to work anywhere. You can't have a free market starting from the base consumer level in this case knives because if spyderco did not have MAP then amazon would use all of the advantages it has from regulations and rules which are inherently anti-free market and favor large corporations.
 
MAP vs price fixing is definitely something people discussed the last time the MAP discount was reduced. I guess I can understand how MAP can be beneficial to the supply chain and your local knife shop but there is certainly an issue to be had when knife companies threaten dealers who sell below MAP or dealers threaten knife companies because other dealers have sold below MAP even though it was unadvertised.

I had forgotten KSF was the one who threatened Spyderco. At least DLT still does their rewards system. I use to order a lot from BHQ back when they use to actually have sales on brands I want but it seems like it’s all MAP prices with the exception of the sprint runs.
 
BMCGear said:
Now he has to lock into the same price everyone else has. MAP sucks and it kills the free market. It benefits no one but the dealer. It is their insurance.

And companies won't budge on MAP even privately which is the norm in the music industry.
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Where I used to live (up until 6 months ago) there was a B&M knife (& gear) store where I got to know the manager/co-owner. Prior to the last map hike, he only carried a few PM2’s Delicas, and Enduras. He said the margins just weren’t there, and he kept them in stock for the folks coming in specifically for those knives.

After the map hike his Spyderco inventory at least tripled. Even still, he wouldn’t budge on map for the Spyderco's. Throughout it all, he freely sold below map on other brands (without advertising).

I don’t know about his distribution chain & etc, but there it is for thought.

<<A little off topic, where I live now there is a fairly well stocked knife (& gear) store with a great selection of Spyderco, BM, KAI, & more. All the stuff on their shelves is marked at MSRP! When they have the rare sale, the reduce something to MAP. o_O Not surprisingly, they have lots of old inventory.>>
 
Competition is a good thing but it to has issues. Taken to the logical extreme end, The lowest price would be Amazon and counterfeits. Then when the dealers and manufacturers go out of business, Amazon controls the market selling counterfeits. It's certainly worth the discussion, but one must really think beyond their own wants to have the discussion.

sal
 
4mer_FMF said:
Where I used to live (up until 6 months ago) there was a B&M knife (& gear) store where I got to know the manager/co-owner. Prior to the last map hike, he only carried a few PM2’s Delicas, and Enduras. He said the margins just weren’t there, and he kept them in stock for the folks coming in specifically for those knives.

After the map hike his Spyderco inventory at least tripled. Even still, he wouldn’t budge on map for the Spyderco's. Throughout it all, he freely sold below map on other brands (without advertising).

I don’t know about his distribution chain & etc, but there it is for thought.

<<A little off topic, where I live now there is a fairly well stocked knife (& gear) store with a great selection of Spyderco, BM, KAI, & more. All the stuff on their shelves is marked at MSRP! When they have the rare sale, the reduce something to MAP. o_O Not surprisingly, they have lots of old inventory.>>
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Places like that are great because you can find those hidden gems sitting brand new in the case years later. Sure they're full MSRP but they're for real new and not outrageous market price.
 
BMCGear said:
The fear stated above that I was addressing was large corporations being able to undercut the smaller guy and ultimately driving competition away.
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Understood.

Messer Meister said:
I didn't mean top down from a class perspective but rather in regards to government and leadership. I'm not advocating for anything , i'm saying that the government itself would need to allow for a free market in order for it to work anywhere. You can't have a free market starting from the base consumer level in this case knives because if spyderco did not have MAP then amazon would use all of the advantages it has from regulations and rules which are inherently anti-free market and favor large corporations.
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I agree. Once you have a very large corporation like Amazon pushing its weight around backed by more $ than they know what to do with, the problem becomes significantly more complex. Everyone, including those at the upper levels of our government, wants a piece of the pie ($). For so many in the corporate world, the bottom line is the almighty dollar. I get it, but it should not be the only consideration. For me, I just want a good quality knife at a reasonable price, not some garbage that won't be worthy of finding a place in a landfill in 3 months.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Competition is a good thing but it to has issues. Taken to the logical extreme end, The lowest price would be Amazon and counterfeits. Then when the dealers and manufacturers go out of business, Amazon controls the market selling counterfeits. It's certainly worth the discussion, but one must really think beyond their own wants to have the discussion.

sal
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Sal,

Thanks for always chiming in and having discussion. I do understand that there are multiple things to consider.

The consumer perspective is that smaller stores demanded MAP so they are on an equal playing field with larger stores. While this does seem like a good idea in theory it has caused and looks like in this case is continuing to cause the profit to go up for the "middle person" in the supply chain. This benefits Spyderco as they continue to sell knives to their distributor chain but hurts the end user because the prices of knives continue to rise.

Even when Amazon was the cheapest I avoided it and supported an authorized dealer like Cutlery Shoppe. Jeff had great prices and great CS. Now because he doesn't have a "points system" he might not get a 2nd look. I'm just curious how Jeff was able to compete with Amazon on pricing and KSF and others weren't?

Again, perception is not reality but this is my perception as a consumer.

BMC
 
Hi BMC,

Jeff is one of our oldest dealers and he's been with us through thick and thin. I don't know how he was able to compete with Amazon, but he's very bright and I'm sure he has his methods. We haven't sold to Amazon for the past year. Yes, it does hurt us, but we couldn't get them to work with us and we don't think it fair for them to be our only dealer.

We've tried a number of things over the years to try to have an honest, fair and proper distribution, but I will admit it's challenging. Especially when one wants to look at business long term. We are always open to suggestions, but we prefer big picture suggestions rather than "just give me the cheapest price".

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi BMC,

Jeff is one of our oldest dealers and he's been with us through thick and thin. I don't know how he was able to compete with Amazon, but he's very bright and I'm sure he has his methods. We haven't sold to Amazon for the past year. Yes, it does hurt us, but we couldn't get them to work with us and we don't think it fair for them to be our only dealer.

We've tried a number of things over the years to try to have an honest, fair and proper distribution, but I will admit it's challenging. Especially when one wants to look at business long term. We are always open to suggestions, but we prefer big picture suggestions rather than "just give me the cheapest price".

sal
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Your willingness to listen is always refreshing. Thank you, Sal.
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi BMC,

Jeff is one of our oldest dealers and he's been with us through thick and thin. I don't know how he was able to compete with Amazon, but he's very bright and I'm sure he has his methods. We haven't sold to Amazon for the past year. Yes, it does hurt us, but we couldn't get them to work with us and we don't think it fair for them to be our only dealer.

We've tried a number of things over the years to try to have an honest, fair and proper distribution, but I will admit it's challenging. Especially when one wants to look at business long term. We are always open to suggestions, but we prefer big picture suggestions rather than "just give me the cheapest price".

sal
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So if Spyderco is not selling to Amazon and restricts distributors from selling to/through Amazon where does the idea come from that Amazon is going to corner the market and drive the other dealers out of business?
 
Hi Sovereign,

That's what history with Amazon and distribution has shown us. Many of our dealers and distributors have complained and have reduced our products or eliminated them entirely because of Amazon.

We're trying to work with them through another system, which some other manufacturers are also trying, but I can't say that it's been very successful to date. I can assure you that we will continue to try to find optimal solutions to serve you, the end line user, which who we consider to be our customer, and we'll work with all of distribution which we consider to be the conduit to reach you.

sal
 
Well knowing spyderco has broken away from Amazon has raised an eyebrow on me again with the brand. I have sold off most my spydercos. Went from almost 30 to 5 . Really wished we could get more lefty models with the Compression lock. I don't mind paying for quality made products. I switched to Chris Reeves Knives so I could have more left hand carry and more reliable vendors. Knowing Amazon is no longer a vendor for spyderco goes along way. What's the word on at least a left handed para3 Sal?
 
There are so many factors to consider:
The internet market has really complicated and driven consumerism.
The guy with the red tie driving steel prices up significantly and claiming he’s the best thing since sliced bread.
The college business grads that are taught to be aggressive and focus on short term gains, then deploy their parachutes at the first sign of instability.
Amazon giving its employees incentives to quit and become independent delivery contractors to undermine the existing shipping industries.
The big players gobbling up the start-ups just to gain some IP and then shuttering the operation 2 years later when they have extracted all they can
 
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