20CV Steel

bigolegator

bigolegator

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Forum, looking to get a synopsis with pros and cons on this steel, and how it compares with use to S30V, M4, Cru Wear, etc. No need to get super-scientific on it...I’m just not familiar with it and I know members on here are so...Thanks in advance for the info and knowledge :) :thumbsup:
 
ANKERSON BLADEFOUMS POST

Testing Process is as follows:

Cutting 5/8" Manila rope on a Scale with wood to cut on. The scale was calibrated for the weight of the wood. Making 3 to 4 slicing cuts from back to tip using the least amount of down force needed to get the starting down force. Once that was established 20 cuts were made then down force was tested again and that continued until 20 LBS was reached.

All the knives started at 14 ~ 15 LBS of down force except for M390 because it cuts so aggressively.

Accuracy is to + or - 10 Cuts and + or - 1 LB of down force or 6%. This was verified doing a blind test of blades of unknown hardness until they were tested after. 2 blades of the same hardness and steel, sharpened the same and same model of knife.

RC hardness is + or - 1 RC on the steels that were tested as the standard of RC testing.

All edges were at 30 degrees inclusive and polished to 6000 grit on the Edge Pro, sharpness was tested by slicing TP clean.

The following data is the results that I got based on the above method, while not conclusive or the end all beat all data it is very accurate.


More steels will be added as they are tested.

CATEGORY 1

CPM-S90V (Military and Para 2) (60)
CTS-20CP (Para 2) (60)
M390 (Mule) (60.5)
CTS - 204P (Para 2)


CATEGORY 2

M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)
CPM-S90V (59) (Manix 2 with 30 Degree Micro Bevel)
CPM-S60V
VANAX 75 (Kershaw Tilt)


CATEGORY 3

Vanax 35 (59.5)


CATEGORY 4

ZDP-189 (65)
CPM-154 (62)
ELMAX (60)
CTS-XHP (Military) (60+)
Super Blue (61.5)
CPM 3V (Big Chris)


CATEGORY 5

S30V (60)
VG-1
CPM - D2 (62)
N690
ATS-34 (59)
CPM-S35VN (59)
N680
ELMAX (58.5) Mule
D2 - Dozier K2


CATEGORY 6

INFI
154CM (61)
14C28N
CTS-B75P (Mule)


CATEGORY 7

VG-10
S30V (58.5)
AUS-8A
SG-2
5160 (55)
13C26N
X-15
440C (Big Chris)


CATEGORY 8

H-1
420 HC (Buck 110)


CATEGORY 9

CTS-BD1


Same method as above, but with a coarse edge, 400 grit congress Silicone carbide, more optimal edge finish for max edge retention to highlight the differences in the steels.

Steel - # of cuts - Model - HRC Hardness - Geometry Measurement -

CPM 20CV - 960 - Michael Raymond Starlit - 62 RC - .007" - .008" behind the edge
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge.
Cru-Wear - 700 - Phil Wilson Custom Bow River - 63 RC - .005" behind the edge.
S30V - 620 - Michael Raymond Estrella Custom - 60.5 - 61 RC - .006" behind the edge
CPM M4 - 500 - Spyderco Gayle Bradley - 62.5 - .022" behind the edge
S30V - 300 - Military - 60 RC
Cru-Wear - 260 - Military - ? RC



CUT TESTS / EDGE RETENTION

"Cedric & Ada Gear and Outdoors" on YouTube is from Australia
(https://www.patreon.com/posts/worksharp-steel-16430576)
(https://www.youtube.com/user/CedricAda)

Standard worksharp edge test (20 degrees micro convex for most tests. 17 degree edges is typical for UNLEASHED tests) unless otherwise noted. The test counts the number of cuts to very abrasive 1 inch thick sisal rope. UNLEASHED TO THE MAXX, Tormek 12 degree edge is not for everyone. The steel edge will roll.

http://knifenews.com/just-how-bad-is-budget-blade-steel/

Pete chooses edge retention as the key criteria to measure folding knife steel. “I want the fine slicing to last as long as possible,” he says. His cut tests, performed using a standardized edge bevel, cutting medium, and method, measure this characteristic, end when the knife can no longer cut printer paper. The testing medium is abrasive sisal rope, and Pete readily admits that this is a harder cut than most. But he finds that steels which fail to make 60-70 cuts in his testing translate to poor EDC options. “Knives that land below the 60 mark generally frustrate me when I carry them extensively as a daily user,” he says.

KEY
Steel(Special), # of cuts knife #1 - Manufacturer #1; # of cuts knife #2 - Manufacturer #2

M390(UNLEASHED TO THE MAXXX, 13deg/12deg per side), 550/810 - Steel Will
CPM M4(UNLEASHED - 15deg edge, 600 grit KME toothy/coarse edge), 700 - Spyderco Mantra
CPM M4(UNLEASHED - 15deg edge, 160,000 grit KME polished edge), 500 - Spyderco Mantra
CPM M4(UNLEASHED - 17dg edge), 489 - Spyderco
Cru Wear(Polished Edge), 375 - Creely Knives
CPM 20CV, 351 - Benchmade Griptillian 555-1
Cru Wear(UNLEASHED - 17dg toothy edge 600 grit), 350 - Creely Knives
S30V UNLEASHED - 16deg edge, 160,000 grit KME polished/mirror edge), 330 - Benchmade 940
CTS 204P, 321 - Spyderco Southard
CPM M4, 280 - Benchmade Contego; 224 - Spyderco Mantra
S30V(UNLEASHED - 16deg, 600 grit KME toothy/coarse edge), 275 - Benchmade 940
CPM S30V (UNLEASHED, 17deg, Polished Edge), 260 - Spyderco Sage
CPM S30V(UNLEASHED - 17dg Tormec 1000 grit), 220 - Benchmade 940
CPM S30V, 185 - Leatherman Charge TTICPM S30V, 175 - Benchmade 940; 190 - Spyderco Sage
 
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HARDNESS / EDGE RETENTION

Well Below Average: 1095 (as usually treated), 420HC, 7Cr13MoV

Below Average: VG-10, AUS8, 440C, 8Cr13MoV

Average: S35VN, S30V

Above Average: M390/20CV/CTS-204p, 3V, CTS-XHP

Well Above Average: ZDP-189, Maxamet, REX 121



TOUGHNESS

Well Below Average: Ceramic

Below Average: S30V, VG-10

Average: S35VN, AUS 8

Above Average: 1095 (as usually treated), AEB-L, CTS-XHP

Well Above Average: INFI, 3V



CORROSION RESISTANCE

Well Below Average: Maxamet

Below Average: ZDP-189, 3V, 8Cr13MoV

Average: VG-10

Above Average: 420HC, 440C, M390/CTS-204p/20CV

Well Above Average: LN 200C, H1



SHARPENABILITY

Well Below Average: ZDP-189, S30V

Below Average: 3V, VG-10

Average: 8Cr13MoV, 440C, S35VN

Above Average: M390/CTS-204p/20CV, CTS-XHP

Well Above Average: INFI, 1095 (as usually treated)
 
- CPM-20CV: CPM M390 and CTS-204P appear to be same alloy by three different makers. Super steel by any name.

EDGE RETENTION: 9 CORROSION RESISTANCE: 7 EASE OF SHARPENING: 2

KNIFE INFORMER SAYS: CPM-20CV is Crucible’s version of Bohler’s popular M390 steel which also influenced Carpenter to copycat with CTS-204P. As a Powder Metallurgy (PM) tool steel, you get a combination of impressive wear resistance and edge retention plus the added benefit of being highly corrosion resistant due to high levels of chromium. It’s still fairly new in the market but makers like Benchmade are already using CPM-20CV in newer models like their 556-1 Griptilian. In fact, Benchmade claim their M390 is marginally tougher but 20CV has better edge retention.


- CPM M4: Great edge retention, difficult to sharpen

EDGE RETENTION: 9 CORROSION RESISTANCE: 2 EASE OF SHARPENING: 2

KNIFE INFORMER SAYS: A high performance tool steel which excels at toughness and arguably holds and edge better than any other carbon steel. Like all CPM steels, CPM M4 is created using Crucible’s patented Crucible Particle Metallurgy process, which provides an extremely homogeneous, stable and grindable product compared to the traditional processes. CPM M4 provides superbly balances levels of abrasion resistance and toughness through high doses of molybdenum (hence the “M”), vanadium and tungsten together with reasonably high levels of carbon. It can be hardened to around 62-64 HRC but note M4 is a carbon steel is not considered stainless with relatively low levels of chromium. So, while this is one of the best steels around for cutting, it has to be properly cared for and may develop a patina over time. Some manufacturers have resorted to coatings which do help but note they won’t last forever. Easy to sharpen?…erm, no.


- CPM S30V: Difficult to sharpen, great edge retention. Not as tough as S35VN. S30V is a high vanadium stainless steel with even higher edge retention than 154CM. CPM S30V is a martensitic (hardened) powder-made (sintered) wear and corrosion resistant stainless steel developed by Dick Barber of Crucible Industries in collaboration with knifemaker Chris Reeve. ... Buck Knives calls it "the absolute best blade steel available". Buck says, "S30V contains carbon as well as high amounts of Chromium, Molybdenum and Vanadium. This steel combines fantastic edge retention and high ductility combined with corrosion resistance. Double-tempered - it can be hardened to a Rockwell hardness of Rc 59.5-61. However, it is difficult to resharpen"

BUCK SAYS: We consider this the absolute best blade steel available, and it is made in America. S30V contains carbon as well as high amounts of Chromium, Molybdenum and Vanadium. This steel combines fantastic edge retention and high ductility combined with corrosion resistance. Double-tempered - it can be hardened to a Rockwell hardness of Rc 59.5-61. However, it is difficult to resharpen yourself, but we do offer sharpening services for a nominal fee.
 
I like it, it is the same composition as M390, and CTS204P. Gets stupid sharp, high corrosion and abrasion resistance. The downside as is the case with high carbide steels is it won't be as tough as the other steels you mentioned. But in folders that isn't much of an issue either. I like to finish mine on a Spyderco Medium Stone. Here is an example of how sharp it can be at that finish with no stropping.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bnoy3vuAr2j/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1jvi9wkuim63k
 
Kbrasmodeler said:
T Tommy-Chi where did you get the time to perform so many tests? Is that part of your job or something? Work in a lab?

Edit: I see. You copied and pasted Ankerson's work.
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Having acquired a B.S. in MIS and almost a second B.S. in Computer Engineering from a Big 12 University I know where/how to give credit where it is due.
 
Just got my first knife in 20cv a Hinderer. In my experience it behaves exactly like m390/204P as it should, strops to shaving sharp with little effort. I got my Hinderer used with what looks like a factory edge but dull as a butter knife. Ten passes on each side with bark river black followed by green compound and it's shaving sharp. Time will tell about the edge retention but I'm sure itll be on par with its other family members.
 
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20 CV is amazing, takes a fantastic edge easily (Spyderco Mule) and holds it a lo-o-o-o-ng time.
 
I've been carrying the 20 CV mini Griptillian at work for a couple months now, using it as a handyman's utility knife. It holds up to a decent amount of abuse.
 
Grease said:
I've been carrying the 20 CV mini Griptillian at work for a couple months now, using it as a handyman's utility knife. It holds up to a decent amount of abuse.
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Picked up one on the Exchange as well and it gets a LOT of pocket time. Great little knife.
 
bigolegator said:
Forum, looking to get a synopsis with pros and cons on this steel, and how it compares with use to S30V, M4, Cru Wear, etc. No need to get super-scientific on it...I’m just not familiar with it and I know members on here are so...Thanks in advance for the info and knowledge :) :thumbsup:
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Usually the search function works really well for this info.

Its very good stainless and has very high edge retention. It's the same as m390 and 204p.

It can chip but isn't prone to chipping. But the higher the HRC the more it can. It's sharpened with diamonds or cbn for faster results and a more keen edge. SiC sharpening stones will work fine but recommend finishing on diamond or cbn strops.

Ideally heat treatment should be with cryo for 61-62hrc but I've seen many production knives at 58-60 hrc which I really don't understand. Though it may provide more toughness at lower rockwell.

M4 and Cru Wear are less stainless but provide good edge retention but less than 20cv. But better edge stability and will roll rather than chip. They have a much higher toughness too.

Check out Peter's reviews on YouTube at Cedric Ada gear and outdoors. He's got some pretty amazing cut tests and stainless tests on this steel among many others.
 
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bigolegator said:
Forum, looking to get a synopsis with pros and cons on this steel, and how it compares with use to S30V, M4, Cru Wear, etc. No need to get super-scientific on it...I’m just not familiar with it and I know members on here are so...Thanks in advance for the info and knowledge :) :thumbsup:
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Hey bud!

I'll give you my take on it -

It's VERY STAINLESS. I say this all of the time here and I'm sure people are tired of hearing it but I have had soooooooo many knives develop patina/surface rust living here in Florida that it isn't funny! In Florida, sweating is not a sign of strenuous labor but a delightful aspect of everyday life. Ambient sweating is usually exacerbated by the fact that I am always in the woods up some tree or at work flambeing something or another in a pan. I'm SWEATY!! And I rust knives.

CPM20CV and family (M390 and CTS-204P) have NEVER rusted. I have carried a Hoback Kwaiback wearing a 20CV blade in a kitchen for years and it has never even so much as flinched. I have used it in office settings, woods, kitchen, home, etc and it has never let me down. No rust, no stains, nada.

I can't express enough how grateful I am for having these steels available to me. While I have had rather good luck with the S--V family of steels as well, if it weren't for 20CV, I likely wouldn't have such a large collection.

I won't go into specs as there are so many more qualified and eloquent individuals who likely will, so, I'll succinctly state my take - I think that 20CV is an excellent steel. Likely the best you could ever want to have in a folder. Excellent edge retention. Excellent corrosion resistance. Excellent sharpenability.
 
There’s a lot of blah blah in this thread. Need more input from real usage.

My input is that it holds a great edge, is more stainless than not and fairly easy to maintain if you don’t let it go dull. Nothing different t here than has been stated.

Great steel.
 
bigolegator said:
Forum, looking to get a synopsis with pros and cons on this steel, and how it compares with use to S30V, M4, Cru Wear, etc. No need to get super-scientific on it...I’m just not familiar with it and I know members on here are so...Thanks in advance for the info and knowledge :) :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Don’t know if you have tried m390 or cts204p but they are essentially the same steels under different brands.

I find it much more pleasant to work with than s30v. It seems to take a polished edge much more readily. It is very abrasion resistant and thus has good edge holding but while fairly tough in a small knife or a folder it is not necessarily the best choice for larger blades. In other words it excels at finer cutting but wouldn’t make the best chopper.

Like most highly wear resistant steels it is a pain to reprofile. However for some reason it doesn’t seem to form a stubborn burr and thus seems to touch up very well. So it is a steel that once you get a good edge on, it is fairly easy to keep touched up...and you will want to. (D2 is sort of like that)

Btw it has a tougher brother steel called Elmax.

Eta: oh also I will add in my personal experience I like it WAY better than s30v. That may be a biased opinion though as I quite dislike s30v.
 
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As stated previously 20CV is a great steel. Compared to S30V it has better edge retention and similar corrosion resistance. On the Rockwell scale it is a bit harder so sharpening can take more effort. But like someone else mentioned unless you allow it to dull it’s not difficult to maintain. You will not be disappointed:thumbsup:
 
I’ve carried a ZT 0609 (.12” thick stock, flat saber grind, 20CV blade) pretty frequently from about Feb or March to July of this year, and sporadically since then. In that time, I’ve used it frequently at work, on cardboard, zip ties, plastic straps, etc. It’s common for me to sweat a bit at work during the Summer months here.

I can’t speak to the ease of sharpening on this steel. All I’ve done is strop it. No chips, no rolls. Glides through paper. Normally, I’d have set my own edge on a knife in that span of time. I haven’t bothered for this one. It’s blowing through everything. There are no signs of corrosion.

Frankly, even if I’d had to sharpen it at this point in time, I’d be very comfortable saying that it’s an outstanding, extremely low maintenance user steel.
 
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