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Originally posted by R.W.Clark
Ummm Guys!

What is the big deal! You are getting all bent out of shape by someting that is really no big deal. I as a knifemaker totally agree with the bill. I just got done reading the entire bill, and I see nothing wrong with it.

It is just like the 2nd amd. issue. Yes Americans have the right to keep and bear arms. But does that include RPGs? Or how about a TOE missle? They are arms are they not?

This is not about whether a knife will attract a magnet. This bill has nothing to do with knives made from steel, stellite, Talonite, Ti, alum or even Liquid Metal. All of these WILL set off a magnetometer set at the proper level. What this bill is meant to do is to close the loophole in the old law.

The 1999 law could be gotten around by adding a little alum strip to a resin knife. This allowed the knife to be picked up by a standard wand but it would not be picked up be a magnetometer. A wand can detect the smallest amount of non-magnetic material. I have used wands on thousands of people. I have had "hits" on people only to find that what I was detecting was a small piece of foil that you tear off the top of a pack of cigarettes. But you can carry a whole pack of cigarettes through most magnetometers without a beep. This law is a good thing.

It is really cheesy that they used 9-11 as the reason. After all, ALL the knives used in the highjackings were legally carried onto the planes. They chose those knives for that very reason. And if you are going to highjack a plane and kill hundreds of people this law will do nothing to stop you from carrying a plastic knife. Hey, murder is already against the law! But lets not make these items readily availible.

Even though in truth all the thug has to do is grind a edge on a piece of Micarta.


I'm with you R.W.

well said.


But if he still wants to switch to Afaghani' I'll take his place in Malibu. Mmmmmmm, calimari steak sandwitch at Neptune's Net every day, sign me up. Fools diggin' in the sand and dying by the 'merican bullets aint got nuthin like the tastey squid of the mighty Malibu.....sluuuuuurrrrrp!

We arnt talkin box-cutter-terrorist knives here. I got plenty of "illegal in CA" goodies, I dont take em out fer fun, but if I did it be a snowballs chance in hell a cop-perator found out about it. If you think you cant buy em 'cause its prohibited, you are just fooling yerself. You want it enough you can get it.
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
...This law is a good thing...

Well, I agree that it is no big deal to owners of Tom's knives. I am certainly not going to sneak mine across the Nevada border and sell it cheap in Reno or anything. It will continue to be my EDC.

But the law is not a good thing. It is patently unenforceable, and the US Constitution prohibits unenforceable laws. It is a bad thing. It technically makes it illegal for Tom, or anyone, to sell Ti knives in the state because it doesn't define what "magnetic" means. It would allow a bad cop to try to stick a magnet to your $500 TNT, and since the magnet would fall off, confiscate your prized pocket knife.

The third reason it is bad is the one you mention yourself next...

...Even though in truth all the thug has to do is grind a edge on a piece of Micarta.

It is already illegal to stab somebody. All this law does is limit the things that law abiding people, who would never dream of stabbing some one with their TNT, can carry and use. It allows poor politicians to appear to be doing something to make the world safer, when in actuality, they have done nothing to address any real problem. It is blowing smoke up the orifaces of the bulk of the population at the expense of a few knife enthusiasts. We are politically expendable.
 
Originally posted by R.W.Clark
All of these WILL set off a magnetometer set at the proper level. What this bill is meant to do is to close the loophole in the old law.
Sure, but how do they define at standard calibration?
Does any of the Ti/Talonite/Stellite passes at their standard calibration?
Can they arbitrarily raise their standard calibration so that although these knives would be detected before, now they cannot and deemed illegal?
I don't really see any malice in the law, but I think they can at least set out what is the standard calibration so there will be ways to figure out whether a certain knife is illegal or not.
 
IT WILL NOT MAKE THE TNT ILLEGAL. That is a bunch of hysterical bullshit. If you want to run around scared to death feel free. But DO NOT make outright LIES!

Read the Fricken bill guys. It has nothing to do with a magnet! It has to do with a magnetometer, that is a walk through metal detector. The standards are set by the FAA (in the case of airports) and by the governing body of any other areas.

Think for a second. Why would they make a machine less sensitive just to "outlaw a knife". That is totally counter productive. The goverment does some nasty stuff, but that idea ranks right up there with the idea that the goverment planned and executed 9-11. If you really believe that, then you need to be fitted with a foil hat so that they can not read your thoughts!:rolleyes:

Like I said believe whatever you want. But don't go around spewing out right lies. If you do you are no better then the media.:rolleyes:

What really makes me laugh is that you guys are up in arms while the makers are shrugging it off.

Just stop and think.
 
Any knife without a ferromagnetic component will be illegal! This means all TNT's, all Ti dive knives, all carbon fiber and Ti knives, ALL OF THEM

Don't forget about those fancy, expensive ceramic kitchen knives.

I recently asked at a local B&M dealer why anyone would spring for one of those when all you have to do is drop it on a hard floor and it'll shatter and be ruined, when if you hit something hard while cutting, a bone maybe, the blade can easily chip and be ruined, when you have to send it in for even the most basic sharpening. One of the answers was that some people have such sensitivity, almost an alergy, to metal that they really do benefit from cutting foods with non-metalic knives.
 
THEY DON"T PICK UP NON-MAGNETIC METALS.

Then they have a very serious problem with their detectors that runs well beyond knives.

The detectors used in airports and most other checkpoints are calibrated to allow some small amount of metal. Shoes have metal eyelets for the laces very often. Slacks may have a metal fastener. Jeans often have metal buttons and/or rivits. Belt buckles are usually metal. Suspenders have metal fittings. Wedding rings... after years, many people can't take them off if they want to. Many people wear earings and other minor jewlery that is time-consuming if not embarasing to remove. Many people have MINOR surgically-implanted metal inside their body (I'm not talking about big stuff, but just a single small screw to help set a broken arm, a stint in a blood vesel, etc.)

The newer detectors actually measure the concentration of metal, not the amount. A one-ounce lump of steel in your pocket may, for example, set the detector off. But two quarter-ounce cufflinks and a half-ounce belt buckle will not because the metal is spread out.

Modern metal detectors are not magnetometers. They do not detect the magnetic properties of the knife. They detect it's ability to conduct an electrical current.

All metals -- aluminum, titanium, Talonite, Stellite, you name it -- all metals create an electrical current when a magentic field moves through them. This is how most electrical generators work. Consider a classic river damn. Water flows through the damn and turns the turbines as it goes. The rotating turbines turn large magnets. Those spinning magnets create a moving magnetic field. That field moves through a coil of wire which is typically made of copper or aluminum (both non-magnetic metals). When that field moves through that coil of wire, it induces an electrical current in the wire. And that, my friends, is how we get electricity. (Notice that accounting irregularities are optional.)

As is very often the case in physics, the opposite is also true. When electricity flows through a metal wire -- again, any kind of wire magnetic or not -- it creates a magnetic field. This is how electric motors work. Electrical current flows through a coil of wire and generates a magnetic field. That field is opposed by a set of permanent magnets. As you know from experimenting with them, magents have two poles called North and South. The North pole of one magnet will attract the South pole of another. But, the North pole of one magnet will repel the North pole of another. The coil and the permanent magnets inside of a motor are mounted in such a way that when the current flows though the coil, the two North poles face each other and repel. And that, my friends, is what makes a motor turn.

So, how does a metal detector work?

Simple. It starts by creating a magnetic field. That magnetic field induces a current into any metal that you may be trying to carry through it. Next, the detector abruptly turns off that magnetic field. This causes the current flowing in the knife in your pocket to stop. But the current doesn't stop immediately. It's a bit like a car when you slam on the brakes. As anyone who's ever been responsible for a rear-end collision knows, there's a brief interval between when you press the breaks and when the car stops. Similarly, there is a brief interval when that current continues to flow. Electrical current flowing in a metal object causes a magnetic field around that object. Eureka! That's what the detector detects!

It doesn't matter if the metal is magnetic or not. If it's metal, the detector's magnetic pulse will induce a current in it. If it's metal, then when the pulse suddenly ends, there will be a slit-second in which that current continues to flow and creates a magnetic field of its own.

It works on copper. It works on brass. It works on aluminum. It works on Talonite. It works on any metal at all.

Practical, reliable, inexpensive detectors using this method have existed for about fifteen years. There is no excuse for still using magnetometers for security screening.

Between aluminum, brass, and titanium, I can easily make a very functional gun from non-magnetic metals. Only the spring needs to be steel... or I could substitute rubber. A rubber spring wouldn't be as durable, but maybe durability isn't high on my list of criteria for this particular gun.

So, if LAX is still using magnetometers, they've got a big problem.
 
Black Razor, if what you say is true then they have most likely raised the sensitivity above proper levels. Most likely to cut down on false positives. Either that or the machines are screwed up. Whatever the case may be. One set of corridors does not dictate policy. But about 5 yrs ago on those same machines I was with a guy who had to show them his bullet scar before they believed that it was the bullet left near his heart that was setting the machines off. Also my steel toed boots have set them off. On base we had several of the new fangled corridors. They picked up pretty much everything.

I still stand by my feeling that this is a good thing. Yes they can still get them (after all drugs are illegal right) and it is almost imposible to inforce. But we do not need them being sold a the local drug store or flee market. Make them work at least a little for it.

And yes I do feel that the average law abiding person has no use for such a thing as a plastic knife. They are designed purely for breaking the law. Just as I feel that the average person does not need an RPG for personal protection or hunting. Some things should stay out of public hands.

If you really feel you need such tools to protect you from whatever, I am sure that there are several groups in the US that would be glad to brainwash, oh I mean have you.
 
Well I guess that the maker of the TnT is a moron. You certianly know more about his knives then he does. Tom has already said that the law will not affect his knives. But you are the legal expert I guess. :rolleyes:


This bill has come about because some company figured out that by adding a little metal strip they could get around the wording of the old laws. It is still about plastic type knives.

But, I am done here. It is clear that you are of a mind to stay paraniod. Have fun and move to Utah, or better still Roswell. You should fit right in.
 
It's a bad law, but it doesn't "outlaw" undetectable knives!

The text of the law is here:
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_bill_20020621_chaptered.html

This law outlaws the manufacture in California, importation into California for commercial sale, and commercial sale of undetectable knives. It does not outlaw their non-commercial importation, and it does not outlaw possession.

If you take a trip outside of California and see an "undetectable knife" you like, you can buy it and bring it back home here. If you don't travel much, you can call your friend in another state, tell him/her the knife you want, have them buy it for you as a gift, and then have them mail the knife to you in California. Non-commercial importation and possession are still legal.

I'd be surprised if Tom Mayo's TNT were not detectible by a metal detector. But even if it weren't, he could sell knives with a stainless steel blade here, or he could build into his TNT knives destined for California a small, detectable piece of metal. You could even remove that piece of metal from the knife once you owned it; remember, possession is not illegal. Also, his customers could purchase his TNT knives out of state.

By the way, most laws restricting possession of various weapons and tools that can be used as weapons were passed with good intentions. That doesn't make them wise, effective, or even constitutional!

Johnny
 
Hi BlackRazor,

I do appreciate that the ban on sale is still significant, especially in that California is a huge market. It affects both sellers and buyers.

If you are a buyer who really wants one, though, you will be able to get one. Assuming our Legislature doesn't pass a subsequent law that bans possession. But I see your point.

Johnny
 
Actually, it is just a matter of semantics here. Stellite 6BH AND Stellite 6K as well as Titanium are NOT magnetic in any sense of the word. The thing that sets off the machine is NOT the magnetic properties. Brass will set it off, as well as orthopedic Titanium parts inside peoples bodies.

Quoted from Tom Mayo!
 
Razor: I think we have enough of your undued complaints. Yes I do agree that the law can be worded better, but I don't see how this would really nail down the TNT.
I personally believe that they should specify at what calibration level is proper, and clear up whether it's allowed for a person to have possession of such items. Heck the regular plastic cutlery provided in a fast food store would be illegal if they says you can't possess it.
I think they should be more specific about what they really want to ban, and make it clear whether they just want to stop manufacturing, or even possession.
Name calling and direct insults are not allowed, if you continue that kind of behaviour, I won't be surprised if the mods would make your account disappear.
 
Has anyone ever let you know you are a class A jerk? I tried to reason with you, but you can't handle it. You are so full of it, it's hard to know where to start

Show a little decorum please, Mr. BlackRazor.

Attack the ideas, not the man.

Please click HERE and read the bladeforums.com rules.
 
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