.....

If you insist as such, then fine. Talonite and Titanium may not be detected, but I'm not sure what materials are used for other parts of the knife. Perhaps Mr. Mayo could elaborate. I read somewhere that the screws are hardened steel or something the like.
Besides, the intent of the law seems to be about carrying knifes in places that they have a decent reason to refrain you from doing so. Although airports were not such an area, courtrooms are places that the government do not want people to have knives. The law doesn't say you can't have one at all, that would be impractical, but it suggests that they just don't want any of them at places at their primary concern.
Sure the law is badly written and can be specified better, but it's not written to target to eliminate EDC as such.
Argue all you want, but this is the last time I really want to hear about this.
 
We don't need personal insults, harsh arguements or sarcasm here. Blackrazor, you are bordering on trollish behavior and I have received complaints. Let's everyone take a nice deep breath and remember we are all on the same team here.
Dave
 
Read the text of the law before you get too worried about your TNT:

As used in this section, an "undetectable knife" means any knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that is commercially manufactured to be used as a weapon and is not detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer, either handheld or otherwise, that is set at standard calibration.(emphasis added)
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First, under California law, a folding knife doesn't fit this definition because it isn't capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon, "unless the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position."

Second, my TNT and your Ti dive knife weren't manufactured to be used as weapons.

Third, the law says "not detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer." The answer to the question, "is that TNT detectable by either a metal detector or magnetometer?" is YES, because it's detectable by a metal detector. By "a or b" is a very different criterium than by "both a and b."
 
I have to agree with BlackRazor...and with Chuck, lets keep the argument centered on the issue, not on each other!

The important text of the law, as my untrained legal mind comprehends it, is the following:

" This bill would revise the definition of "undetectable knife" to
include any knife or other instrument that, among other criteria, is
not detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer, as specified."

There is no specification for "standard calibration" given. That specification has probably been documented by the FAA, or the new CA department of public security, but I believe that if a watch, a belt buckle, a wedding ring won't set off an airport metal detector, then a TnT won't either. And if a TNT won't set off an airport metal detector, it is now to be illegal to make or sell in CA. Before 9/11, who here had not walked through an airport metal detector with a decent sized steel folder without a peep?

It is no big deal for us owners. We didn't make them, and we didn't sell them. It is probably not an issue for a small volume maker of hand made knives like Tom. It could well be a big problem for a distributor selling Camillus Talonite Talons in CA. It could well be a huge problem for Mission Knives.

It is a stupid, bad law. We, as citizens of the US really cannot afford to calmly tolerate this sort of governance. It is another chip in a steady erosion of our rights and the viability of the US Constitution. We should ALL be very concerned about this type of law making. It is insidious, and it is unconstitutional.
 
I still think the TnT gets by on not being "comercially manufactured to be a weapon."

DD
 
Very good point, dsvirsky and Daniel. It's one thing to have a sharp piece of plastic formed in the shape of a knife, that's not useful for anything but stabbing someone. It's another to have a delicate ceramic kitchen knife or a utility/work/decorative knife like the TNT--they're not manufactured as weapons. The TNT is probably not covered by this law at all, making the whole discussion moot. Good pickup!

Tom - California does not have a blade length limit on folders. However several cities and counties in California require folders 3" or over that are carried *exposed* to have a legitimate occupational, recreational, or religious purpose. A few cities have various other restrictions, including a very few with a 'less than 3"' limit for both exposed and concealed carry. Berkeley has such a limit, but has an exception for legitimate carry as above. But I've never seen "legitimate recreational purpose" defined. Anaheim forbits loitering in a drinking establishment with a knife with a blade over 2 1/2". It's a patchwork quilt of laws.

Johnny
 
And just who is going to manufacture a knife and brand it as a weapon knowing that that will shut them out of the California market?

Remember, Benchmade re-branded the AFCK just to avoid this sort of law. It used to be the "Advanced Folding Combat Knife." Now, officially, it's the "Advanced Folding Camping Knife."

So, what good is the law if you can skirt around it through careful selection of words?

And just who decides what purpose a knife is manufactured for?

The magnetometer issue is an interesting one because they never specify, as the law has been presented here, what type of magnetometer to use. The US Navy equips submarines with magnetometers that are so sensitive that they map the concentrations of iron on the ocean floor. It's one of the ways they navigate. I'm all but certain that one of these would pick up a knife such as a TNT even if it was made entirely of Talonite and Titanium, probably from a mile away, simply because of trace impurities in the metals used. So, can I use one of those magnetometers for the test?


it makes me worried that cops can carry around magnets and use them to confiscate knives (even though it's not technically legal). Remember, cops aren't lawyers and as such are not expected to be completely responsible for the details of the law (although they should be).
Click to expand...

A lawyer goes to law school for about five years typically and most any lawyer will tell you that he doesn't know the WHOLE law. A typical police officer's training includes 40 classroom hours of instruction in law. 40 hours to learn what a lawyer takes five years to learn. Once he's graduated, a lawyer spends 40 hours per week focused on law. Once he's graduated, a policeman spends only a few hours a week even thinking about law. And remember, that 40 hours of classroom time the officer got had to include everything from civil rights law to family law to criminal law. Exotic weapons laws probably got about thirty seconds.

That's why in technical matters, police departments hire lawyers and technical experts to develope procedures and tests for officers to follow and use. When faced with some suspecious-looking plant material, the officer isn't left to his own devices to figure out if it's pot or not. His department has provided him with a procedure and a test to use. That test was developed by scientists and engineers and the procedure was crafted by lawyers. The officer doesn't have to know why the fluid in the tube changes color if the material in question is pot. All he has to do is carefully follow the procedure he was given and trained on and if the fluid changes color, then he makes the arrest.

A magnet is not a valid test to determine if a knife can be detected by a metal detector or not. When departments go to develope procedures to impliment this law, they'll consult with technical experts who will tell them that.

Will officers make mistakes? Yes. That's what courts are for.

Overall, though, I oppose any law that presupposes that any object with obvious peaceful uses and where statistics show that the vast majority of times that that object is used it is used for peaceful, practical purposes, is a dangerous weapon and must be banned.

It's cliche', I know, but knives don't kill people, people kill people.
 
Originally posted by Daniel Dorn
I still think the TnT gets by on not being "comercially manufactured to be a weapon."
Click to expand...

Good catch, Daniel!

That seems like a pretty important phrase from this new law also. This could be an out for many knives, but again, the definition of a knife manufactured to be a weapon is not defined in an enforceable way. Does it mean manufactured as a weapon only, or manufactured knowing it could be a weapon?

And notice that law enforcement is exempt!!!!!

We all know that law enforcement professionals are morally superior to the rest of the population, and are therefore worthy of the trust of society that does not trust itself!

Just a little fascist cancer, eating away at a tiny corner of US freedom. No big deal.

Again, I acknowledge that the impact to us fans of hand made, corrosion proof knives have nothing much to worry about, but it is a law obviously made without much careful thought, and wide open for grievous misapplication.
 
We all know that law enforcement professionals are morally superior to the rest of the population, and are therefore worthy of the trust of society that does not trust itself!
Click to expand...

In twenty-something years, the state of Oregon has issued something like 300,000 Concealed Handgun Licenses to qualified citizens. In all of that time and all of those licenses, there has not been one single case of an Oregon CHL holder committing a violent crime, not one! But, each year here in Oregon we hear of several cases of sworn law-enforcement officers committing violent crimes. And I don't mean acts in the line of duty; I mean violent crimes. Just a couple of years ago, a Portland officer shot his wife with a shotgun. You are infinitely more likely to be the victim of a violent crime at the hands of one of Oregon's finest (and again, I do not mean acts in the line of duty) than any of Oregon's proud CHL-holding citizens.

Now, with that said, let me add that the rate of violent crimes among Oregon's sworn officers is way, way below that of the general population. But, it is non-zero. Police officers are good people, but, as a group, they are still human and, therefore, not perfect.
 
Originally posted by BlackRazor
I'm not sure if agree with you're interpretation of the sentence "not detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer." Imagine for a second if it read "is not black or blue." Clearly then, all knives that are black or blue would be illegal?[/B]
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Let's say any item with A or B is illegal.
That means taht any item that's not A and not B at the same time is illegal.
In this case, a knife not detectable by a magnetometer or metal detector, which when negated, means the item should be detected by both items. I think that's a logical flaw at work and should be changed.
But who cares? TNT is not built to be a weapon and more like a gentleman's knife, and there are enough loopholes to get by.
And I forgot to mention, Razor, it was you who first start being uncivil. I don't see how you can say:
I will stay civil if others will.
Click to expand...
 
It is just a feel good law that Davis and his cronies liked. Makes them feel like it will prevent another 9/11. It will probably get them some free press that the sheepies will like. I agree with Clark. It doesn't do anything. No reason to get fired up.
Greg
 
Greg, respectfully, if this sort of law does not get you fired up, you have your head burried in the sand, and you likely won't pull it out until your right to carry the knife of your choosing disappears into the same black hole. You don't have to become a full time activist or start a revolution...but you have to be pissed off if you are a knife carrying individual in the state of California. You have to be.

Nibble, nibble, nibble. The worm is turning.
 
Tom:
In general, all folding knives are legal in California except: automatic knives with a blade greater than 2 inches and double edged knives. Laws vary by city and county but they all seem vague with a lot of weight on the LEO involved and the circumstances.:D :cool: :eek:
 
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