.223 Effective and humane on white tail deer?

There's a few hunters use the .223 here, I know of with no problems. As long as they get the perfect broadside shot. But, when they don't deliver the high velocity round perfectly I have heard of deer being lost. Kentucky didn't allow the use of .22 caliber rifles at first, then they changed it to include all center fire .22 cal. I think it had as much to do with the game dept. wanting as many people as possible hunting deer, as it did killing capability. As we are absolutely over run with deer now. I see them in my backyard everyday and they aren't even afraid of people or dogs until hunting season opens. Raising a garden is very difficult because they eat almost anything including tomato vines.
 
zenheretic said:
I believe that is one of those urban legend type gun myths that will continually float around. Fish and Game keeps statistically significant records, the likelihood that the .22 has done all that is downright preposterous. Even if you consider poaching, which isn't done all that much compared to the whole United States and legal hunting therein it just isn't remotely likely.
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I believe that it isn't as much urban legend as you think but it's also something that your not going to find many statistics for.I know in the areas of PA and NY that I've lived in,there are a lot of deer taken with a 22 rimfire because they are quiet,there are a lot more farmers taking deer at night than you can imagine,you can get a permit to do it legally in NY,and I'm sure it's done in a lot of other states that grow crops.As a kid growing up,we spent quite a few evenings in the summer skinning deer,most of the people doing it aren't letting them go to waste either.
 
dougo83 said:
Also, absintheur, where did you get all your info from? Something to add a little cred. to it would be appreciated. No offense intended, btw...
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The info is easy to find, just look at the ammunition manufacturers websites or reloading manuals. The TKO factors I gave the formula for...do the math yourself if you doubt I am right. Add in my personal credentials as a firearms expert and instructor to the mix and I think that is "cred" enough.
 
Absintheur said:
The info is easy to find, just look at the ammunition manufacturers websites or reloading manuals. The TKO factors I gave the formula for...do the math yourself if you doubt I am right.
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Don't get all pissy, now. Never said I doubted the figs, just wanted to know where they came from. This is teh interwebz after all, I can put random crap up and call it fact too...
 
I know one old farmer that, lets me hike on his land and he shoots deer with a .22 mag with the Winchester hollow point 40 grain round. He only takes shots out his bedroom window, from a distance of around 40 yards as they are eating his garden. I've seen where they fall and surprising enough it's not all that far with a lung/heart shot. (yes he does have a permit to take them for destroying his crops, whether or not it's legal to use the rimfire I don't know)
 
The Federal loading with the Nosler Partition works perfectly on shots under 75 yards. 5 deer, heart/lung, DRT.
 
Absintheur said:
The info is easy to find, just look at the ammunition manufacturers websites or reloading manuals. The TKO factors I gave the formula for...do the math yourself if you doubt I am right. Add in my personal credentials as a firearms expert and instructor to the mix and I think that is "cred" enough.
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who designated you an "expert" lol??? i had no idea ya were an expert or an instructor FWIW, shoot, i might consider myself an expert too, but it dont mean others agree with me lol, but then again i usually try and add "imho" (in my honest OPNION) to clarify things as i dont imho speak the "gospel" on everything firearms related. but i do know a little bit about this and that.


do ya instruct LEO's in firearms and tactics, or the military/DoD, or what?

and i mean no offense, but ya see a lot of self appointed "experts" on the 'net, so i am a little picky on whos word is the "gospel".

wasnt too may yrs back i thought several gun mag writers spoke the "gospel" and i have since learned some of them are no more "expert" than i am lol.

and again, no offense bro', i love ya like a sister, but ya see lots of experts around these days.

FWIW i agree with ya about 223 & deer.
 
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beau5278 said:
I believe that it isn't as much urban legend as you think but it's also something that your not going to find many statistics for.I know in the areas of PA and NY that I've lived in,there are a lot of deer taken with a 22 rimfire because they are quiet,there are a lot more farmers taking deer at night than you can imagine,you can get a permit to do it legally in NY,and I'm sure it's done in a lot of other states that grow crops.As a kid growing up,we spent quite a few evenings in the summer skinning deer,most of the people doing it aren't letting them go to waste either.
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Well I guess it is an impossible point to argue and considering our vastly different backgrounds our experiences are obviously quite different. What is apparently commonplace back east is pretty much unthinkable in Montana where I grew up. If one wanted to poach up there you would still use a .30-.30; .243; ole reliable 30-06 who would hear or care? :D
 
SIFU1A said:
who designated you an "expert" lol??? i had no idea ya were an expert or an instructor FWIW, shoot, i might consider myself an expert too, but it dont mean others agree with me lol, but then again i usually try and add "imho" (in my honest OPNION) to clarify things as i dont imho speak the "gospel" on everything firearms related. but i do know a little bit about this and that.


do ya instruct LEO's in firearms and tactics, or the military/DoD, or what?

and i mean no offense, but ya see a lot of self appointed "experts" on the 'net, so i am a little picky on whos word is the "gospel".

wasnt too may yrs back i thought several gun mag writers spoke the "gospel" and i have since learned some of them are no more "expert" than i am lol.

and again, no offense bro', i love ya like a sister, but ya see lots of experts around these days.

FWIW i agree with ya about 223 & deer.
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I am a NRA certified Law Enforcement Instructor in Rifle, Pistol, and Shotgun. I am a NRA certified Instructor in Certified Pistol, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer. I am also a school trained H&K Armorer for rifle, pistol, shotgun, and submachinegun. In addition I owned my own gunshop with ClassIII for over 20 years. I am a graduate of schools ranging from Ayoob's LFI classes to several of Farnham's, as well as a handful of other instructors. I have been competing for many years with my best accomplishments including winning the Midwest Regional in NRA Action Pistol, The ISRPA Indiana Skeet Championship, the Midwest GSSF Glock Regional, and several State Action Pistol Championships. I also won the Original Jungle Lane Full Auto shoot three times as well as some other various full auto and suppressed matches. I am an NRA High Master.

I am mostly retired these days, I still teach firearms but I do it pro bono. I don't compete nearly as much as I did before the degenerative disc disease destroyed a good portion of my lower back. I simply cannot shoot 200 rounds of 12 gauge needed for trap for instance.I still shoot a good bit but not the 50,000 thousand rounds a year I shot when I was actively competing on the national level.

My proudest accomplishment is still my service to my country as a 19D.
 
Absintheur said:
I am a NRA certified Law Enforcement Instructor in Rifle, Pistol, and Shotgun. I am a NRA certified Instructor in Certified Pistol, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer. I am also a school trained H&K Armorer for rifle, pistol, shotgun, and submachinegun. In addition I owned my own gunshop with ClassIII for over 20 years. I am a graduate of schools ranging from Ayoob's LFI classes to several of Farnham's, as well as a handful of other instructors. I have been competing for many years with my best accomplishments including winning the Midwest Regional in NRA Action Pistol, The ISRPA Indiana Skeet Championship, the Midwest GSSF Glock Regional, and several State Action Pistol Championships. I also won the Original Jungle Lane Full Auto shoot three times as well as some other various full auto and suppressed matches. I am an NRA High Master.

I am mostly retired these days, I still teach firearms but I do it pro bono. I don't compete nearly as much as I did before the degenerative disc disease destroyed a good portion of my lower back. I simply cannot shoot 200 rounds of 12 gauge needed for trap for instance.I still shoot a good bit but not the 50,000 thousand rounds a year I shot when I was actively competing on the national level.

My proudest accomplishment is still my service to my country as a 19D.
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Damn... burn. :p
 
I have used my Ruger Mini 14 to down wild hogs,deer and others but all under 80yds beyond that I would use a larger caliber.
 
Just to give a little perspective. Many people have stories of taking deer, hogs, etc. with a .223, or a .22rf or a .22 Hornet, or whatever. However, no one brags about the animals they shot with a diminuitive cartridge and never recovered. No stats are available for the ones that got away. These stories are interesting, but don't make the ..223 an effective deer cartridge. Check your state's game laws carefully, if they don't specify calibre, they probably specify a certain energy level at a cetain distance. Read the fine print. In my opinion, I would not use nor recommend anything smaller than a .243 for deer.
 
I won't argue as to if the .223 is effective (or legal) for your area, but it's pretty common here for depredation and culling.

Most hunters don't have enough patience to pass up a bad angle, especially if the season is only two weeks long. Real deer calibers for trophy animals start at the .270 Winchester. I always put it in perspective...if a B&C buck walks by, do you want to be holding a .223 or a .270?
 
Woud it be effective? No. Would it be humane? No. .223 would be too small for a whitetail. Something in the .30 caliber range would be sufficient.
 
SIFU1A said:
or .25, a .25-06 or .270 is as good as it gets for deer.
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Depends. I wouldn't want to take a 400 yd. shot or take a shot while sitting in the middle of a laurel thicket as cover with a .270. But for open areas (no brush, limbs, etc) at 100 yards or less, a .270 can be effective. Still, my preference is for .30 or larger...

I guess this is why they make more than one caliber. :D
 
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