3 Bears attack 2 Boy Scouts in the Wilds of New Jersey

It sounds like you are suffering from having the majority opinion enforced on
you by an unsymphathitic(?) population. Yes it is true that the scouts
should have been more careful, but to blame unsupervised children for
having cookies in there packs is a little strange. And the bear hunt in my
opinion, was a factor in the event in that the only population control the
bears face is cars, disease, or their range wandering into a state that allows
hunting. In the meanwhile the only population control on the bears is the
lack of access to garbage dumps or some kind of season on the bears. So
I hope that there is no further problems that lead to tragedy on hand wringing on some poor parents that did not deserve to lose a child or
pet because "we need to study this issue". Look at the problem out west
with mountain lions stalking joggers and school children and the reaction
that "we shouldn't destroy these precious animals" while the victim struggles
for life after an attack. Wow, if the AR folks can't see the danger I hope at
least they come to reason before someone get's seriously gets hurt.
 
We all suffer from the opinions of unsympathetic populations. Some of the suffering can be alleviated by the Bill of Rights, some of it by fighting back, and forcing the issue. Freedom isn't free, and some of our fellow citizens can be our worst enemies -- and their own, if they only knew it. But that's how democracy works. There is no unimpeachable authority, only a constant battle for supremacy, hopefully with consideration for the basic human rights of the losers.

No one is blaming the kids. Supervision should have been more aware and more clear about the dangers. The original article indicated that the particular area was so valuable for scouting because it was wilder than the surroundings, and bears were known to roam freely there.

It's great to live where the wild is still nearby, but the constant growth does disturb our "neighbors". We have to be alert. The hunt is a separate issue, although an issue that could help with some of the problems we see caused by our own population spread.

Frankly, if human populations and wild animals lived in distinct areas, and never interacted accidentally, there are many people who would insist that there would then be no "need" for hunting at all. I think this is exactly wrong. Hunting is a thing in itself, a human (and animal) activity that resonates with our very nature.

Unfortunately, the great masses, primarily in the cities, are all too divorced from nature, have no real respect for it, and no understanding even of themselves.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
We all suffer from the opinions of unsympathetic populations. Some of the suffering can be alleviated by the Bill of Rights, some of it by fighting back, and forcing the issue. Freedom isn't free, and some of our fellow citizens can be our worst enemies -- and their own, if they only knew it. But that's how democracy works. There is no unimpeachable authority, only a constant battle for supremacy, hopefully with consideration for the basic human rights of the losers.

No one is blaming the kids. Supervision should have been more aware and more clear about the dangers. The original article indicated that the particular area was so valuable for scouting because it was wilder than the surroundings, and bears were known to roam freely there.

It's great to live where the wild is still nearby, but the constant growth does disturb our "neighbors". We have to be alert. The hunt is a separate issue, although an issue that could help with some of the problems we see caused by our own population spread.

Frankly, if human populations and wild animals lived in distinct areas, and never interacted accidentally, there are many people who would insist that there would then be no "need" for hunting at all. I think this is exactly wrong. Hunting is a thing in itself, a human (and animal) activity that resonates with our very nature.

Unfortunately, the great masses, primarily in the cities, are all too divorced from nature, have no real respect for it, and no understanding even of themselves.
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Just wanted to say that this is one of the best posts I've ever seen on Bladeforums. Very well put.

Leo
 
Esav Benyamin said:
fixer27, welcome to Bladeforums! :)

The situation here is complex. The group that was attacked should have been more alert. the area was important to them because it was sort of wild. By the same token, they should have taken better precautions but they responded pretty well.

The bear hunt is a separate issue altogether. There are people here who have no contact with the outdoors other than grass and flowers, and just don't relate to traditional sports and occupations...
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E B,

Very Well Put!! I actually thought that the Boy Scouts may not have been treating the area (Wildlife Habitat)with the propper respect that was needed in that area at this time of year. My first response several posts ago was one of disgust because of the knee jerk reaction to the confrontation. Another formite appears to have thought from my statement that I am a anti-hunt activist, which I am not. However, as I understand the confrintation between Mother Bear her Cubs and Boy Scouts, I did not, and still do not think that the situation warrented the killing of a Bear just because she was acting on pure instict in that she was protecting her young. I will never understand people when it comes to this type of rationale... The Bears, however, I understand.

As far as Hunting goes, I am fine with it, and hunt myself, as long as it is done with common sense, and legal game is taken in the specific area. But that said, not all hunted game legally taken is very sensible. If one hunts game properly, and sensibly, and for food and hide/pelts, then I believe it is nobile and right, and is certainly within Gods Commands & Laws... But if it is just for trophy, then I am of the opinion it is pure waste and a mans pride, and threrfore inherently wrong... One most know the difference!.. ;)
 
I agree that trophy hunting does not make much sense and is wasteful
of a resource. Yes the boy scouts should have been more careful but
who attacked whom? And what is the likelyhood of more attacks?
We have had several incidents of people who feed bears in the backyard
only to have the bears attack them. None fataly but they people were
mauled badly and spent weeks in the hospital. I also would remind people
that the bears have really no natural enemies and there is virtually no limits
on how large the NJ bear population could reach (baring disease). The other
problem from the story is this view that the outdoors is just a big theme park
and nothing bad can happen on a walk in the woods and there is always
help available which shows such a lack of personnel responsibility that can
lead to tragedy.
 
fixer27 said:
I agree that trophy hunting does not make much sense and is wasteful
of a resource. Yes the boy scouts should have been more careful but
who attacked whom? And what is the likelyhood of more attacks?
We have had several incidents of people who feed bears in the backyard
only to have the bears attack them. None fataly but they people were
mauled badly and spent weeks in the hospital. I also would remind people
that the bears have really no natural enemies and there is virtually no limits
on how large the NJ bear population could reach (baring disease). The other
problem from the story is this view that the outdoors is just a big theme park
and nothing bad can happen on a walk in the woods and there is always
help available which shows such a lack of personnel responsibility that can
lead to tragedy.
Click to expand...

fixer27,
Thanks for your reponse. That said, am I missing somthing here???? What person in they're right mind would feed any wild animal in they're back yard especially BEARS WITH CUBS, and think that they would not get mauled or worse?? :confused: Let me announce to the uninformed formites here that if you are f`n with the natural scheme of things then expect the worst to happen... Hello, earth to assho!es, come in assho!es :confused: :footinmou :barf:
 
fixer27 said:
I also would remind people that the bears have really no natural enemies and there is virtually no limits on how large the NJ bear population could reach (baring disease).
Click to expand...
Actually, like many large animals, bears will breed to fill their available habitat. Their territoriality helps keep the population within sustainable limits. The reason humans do not follow this rule is that we expand our habitat when we reach its limits, and even invent new habitat, for example: farming and herding.

When a bear population finds humans encroaching and taking over their habitat, as we've been doing by building housing developments in northern New Jersey, they are in a bind. Their population was optimized for the old territory, which has now shrunk drastically and rapidly. They have no way to adapt as individuals, so the weaker move out ... into previously built up territory.

In the short term, hunting for whatever reason will relieve pressure on the bear population. In the long term, reasonable natural areas set aside would allow for a healthy breeding population of bears, and for human use, hiking and camping.

But political and social shibboleths interfere with rational discussion, and ignorance prevails over all.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Actually, like many large animals, bears will breed to fill their available habitat. Their territoriality helps keep the population within sustainable limits. The reason humans do not follow this rule is that we expand our habitat when we reach its limits, and even invent new habitat, for example: farming and herding.

When a bear population finds humans encroaching and taking over their habitat, as we've been doing by building housing developments in northern New Jersey, they are in a bind. Their population was optimized for the old territory, which has now shrunk drastically and rapidly. They have no way to adapt as individuals, so the weaker move out ... into previously built up territory.

In the short term, hunting for whatever reason will relieve pressure on the bear population. In the long term, reasonable natural areas set aside would allow for a healthy breeding population of bears, and for human use, hiking and camping.
Click to expand...

This is correct!... :) .. But, please do not give up on educating the masses to get this message out to them...

Thanks~
 
That is correct EB and unfortunately humans as the dominant species
are terribly short sighted and soon won't be able to see the forests or
the trees. I would guess that property in that part of NJ is very expensive
and you won't very easily find such open areas for parks. The only reason
why I comment on this story is I remember a couple hiking on the Blue
Ridge Parkway (they were tourists) and a single black bear attacked and
killed the husband and the poor wife had to watch. They did not even have
pepper spray and the cell phone call to 911 took about 25 minutes for help
to arrive so the Scouts were very lucky.
 
As the proportion of human population in urban and suburban areas exceeds that in rural areas, people lose all understanding of the natural world. North Jersey is green. Any ride along one of our highways looks out over fields and trees. Unfortunately, these green belts are narrow. They aren't nearly extensive enough to provide true habitat for a complex ecology.

Our artificial environments provide security but not vitality. Like reality TV, they are a poor substitute for what reality can be. This shows up in many aspects of life in the big city: frivolous lawsuits, fear of pocket knives, road rage. All these are social sicknesses brought on by the frustration of so rarely encountering anything significant in itself that the mind, trapped in an artificial environment, seeks out artificial meaning.

We can hardly expect people suffering from this disconnect to understand how to deal with the bears who still survive alongside us, however hard we try to forget them.

Barely caring, the bear carried on,
never sure if he would ever
get back to his woods before they were gone,
so easily life's thread we sever.

The average bear could hardly care
if humans see him walking there,
but when the hunters, with their guns,
attack -- the bear runs.

With tricks and toys, like little boys,
we play and slay for fun.
Some day we'll find more elegant joys
and savor what we've won.

Until that day, in every way,
we're beasts without a fetter;
but when the Spirit rules the day,
we'll better understand the Letter.
 
Bears, eh?

Thank goodness that's the only thing some kids in the woods have to worry about.

Not to change the tune of this thread, the comments of which have been great, but just *think* about this...

Other parents around the world are worried about their kids stepping on land mines... or getting kidnapped to serve in a child army in Africa... or are enslaved... or dying by age 5 because they got a disease from drinking septic water... or being killed by their own parents for being born a girl... or being hit by an RPG in the ruins of a city.

And a group of parents in New Jersey is worried because in the year 2004, there are still bears in the woods? Attracted by kids eating candy?

Sorry if I don't join *that* bandwagon!
 
As to the bear thing, there has to be a balance on all sides. But there isn't. Lack of understanding is the main unbalanced thing here of them all.
Well said to all those out there that said education. as to watchful's comment spot on. I have worked alot in some of these countries that you have talk about first hand. There is alot more griff out there for those victims then some scouts ( no offence to there parents) Also to add, the wildlife population world wide is also falling due to war, landmine, uneducated hunting and so on. So where is the balance.
 
Listen guys, if you want to discuss the ills of the world, don't hijack this thread. Open your own complaint in the Political Arena.

Of course there are other threats out there. So what? Do we have to arrest every criminal in the world before we can bring any one of them to trial? If every thread is about every problem in the world, then we have no focus and no resolution.

Take your land mines somewhere else. This is the Wilderness & Survival Skills forum.
 
Very interesting post.

The wilderness is what it is "the wilderness" and that is why i always pack my Glock .40 or 1911 .45 when hiking. I also pack a large first aid kit and survival kit and i pack all not just for myself, but for others who go up in the
wilderness unprepared.
 
That's the truth. Whatever the cause, whatever the solution, when you go anyplace, be prepared for the situations you're likely to meet. Unfortunately I'm afraid, those scouts went for walk in relatively wild country thinking they were in their own backyards.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Unfortunately I'm afraid, those scouts went for walk in relatively wild country thinking they were in their own backyards.
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And that, after all has been said, is the bottom line and the God's honest truth of the matter!..

.. If we can all learn from this incident and the thread discussion herein that being educated and prepared to the best of our ability prior to our outdoors adventures, it would go a long way to keeping ourselves and the Bears safe and content.
 
Game management is what they do in PA . This year ,just like the last 4 years, hunters harvested about 3000 bears !! The NJ situation I can't keep track of because it changes every day !
 
I have some friends from NJ and they are the most "outdoorsy" types
I have met. (and rather nice to.) As far as the troubles of the world
the haven't changed and probrably never will. And to EB (forgive the
abbreviations.) When you talk about disconnect I wonder if you think that
the Hegelian dialectict (?) has taken over and could be used, those same
tools as a "counteroffensive" ? If a population has been robbed of it's will
for whatever reason, surely the tools used can be used against the robbers?
And btw perhaps this will give those scouts a different perspective on the
dangerousness of the world. The problem with the above views about
caring about the world is that unless you own backyard is cleaned up
it is cruel hard to worry about "pick a country", what EB is saying and I
Agree with is there is such a disconnect between what a majority wants
and a minority however large in a a Democratic republic country that unless you are simply a born poltician you will worry about your own backyard
(ie attacking bears) much more than the generaly self induced problems
of other tribal based countries. While I may agree I don't speak for someone
else. (sorry EB)
 
Gotta love New Jersey, comrade!

In New Jersey, it's illegal to take a firearm into the woods without a hunting permit. It's considered an attempt "to take game illegally." Read the regulations at http://www.njfishandwildlife.com/

It's also illegal to take a firearm into the woods when the hunting season hasn't started. Furthermore, it's illegal to take a firearm into the woods that isn't legal for hunting.

So if you are assaulted by wild animals such as black bear, you are defenseless.
 
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