3 new traditionals, one disappointed knife fan

To be clear, I am not trying to be an overly opinionated loud mouthed jerk. I am trying to understand. To me, Carl's take on worn out tooling makes sense.

So, if possible, I am looking to be enlightened on the subject.
 
richstag said:
To be clear, I am not trying to be an overly opinionated loud mouthed jerk. I am trying to understand. To me, Carl's take on worn out tooling makes sense.

So, if possible, I am looking to be enlightened on the subject.
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no offense taken, i honestly dont know but i would hazard a guess that its a few things rather than just one, kind of a cop out answer but its all i can offer. Ive never assembled one so i'm amazed at all slipjoints even the goofy ones:D
worn out tooling makes sense for sure as would unreasonable demands on workers, etc. not saying case i doing any of this just throwing it out there. As i know they have downsized in recent years, that obviously complicates matters to some extent
gene
 
I disagree with Moon Wilson: "Whenever you have hand work, you get inconsistency"
The "inconsistency" he is referring to are issues that make a knife sub par.
There was as much "hand work" or more in USA folders made pre WW II and in the superb vintage Sheffield folders.
These vintage knives do not seem to have had "inconsistencies". Quite the opposite, the fit and finish is universally superb.
Making excuses for Case's low standards does not help Case.
Confronting Case (like by returning a sub par knife) is more helpful as it may eventually get Case to get honest with themselves and recognize that they have a problem. This degree of 'honesty' is always the first step needed for change to occur.
Otherwise, the history of other USA knife manufacturers as outlined by Carl will be repeated, and "another one bites the dust".
As an addendum: This is why i have bought such a crazy number of Rough Rider knives: i always get the rush of opening up and holding a nicely made knife. I never have had the feeling of bitter disappointment expressed in the OP with these super inexpensive knives.
roland
 
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I still have faith in Case. The Sway Back Jack and Bose colabs are amazing quality. Seems like a few quality issues continue to slip through. Let's hope that Case can keep that under control. Now for Buck I do not have that kind of faith. I ordered a 301 online and it was a complete disaster. The grinds were so bad that blades would not even fit together enough to close completely. How in the world this knife even made if off the line is a mystery. To make it worse when I sent it back for an exchange I ended up with one that was almost as bad. So much blade rub that I had to push the blades closed. At that point I gave up it was two strikes and your out. No more Bucks for me.
 
This video was linked in another thread here, a while back. Part of the "How It's Made" series, featuring Case pocketknife production. Much of the work is automated, although many of the assembly & finishing steps are done by hand, including pinning the blades/bolsters into the handle, some 'fine tuning' using shims, and final cutting edges applied by hand on belts. The sheer volume of the production process highlights how very little time can be taken by each worker, in 'hand-fitting' each knife to the 'perfect' standard some here might think they're entitled to.

[video=youtube;LyTKaVE8olc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyTKaVE8olc&feature=player_embedded[/video]
 
Interesting thread. I bought a dozen or so Case small toothpicks over the last year, and the only complaint I have is the seller of the ebony one described it as NIB and it obviously had been carried enough to get a patina on the scales and bolsters. That knife apparently is hard to come by, so I didn't do anything about it.

I did purchase one new Copperlock. When I received it, something about it didn't look right, but it appears that was just me.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
This video was linked in another thread here, a while back. Part of the "How It's Made" series, featuring Case pocketknife production. Much of the work is automated, although many of the assembly & finishing steps are done by hand, including pinning the blades/bolsters into the handle, some 'fine tuning' using shims, and final cutting edges applied by hand on belts. The sheer volume of the production process highlights how very little time can be taken by each worker, in 'hand-fitting' each knife to the 'perfect' standard some here might think they're entitled to.

[video=youtube;LyTKaVE8olc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyTKaVE8olc&feature=player_embedded[/video]
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David, please don't take my comments with any undue tone. To me its not about entitlement. Its about not wanting to see Case fail. I remember those videos, and even showing how different lines have different processes. Case knives are not cheap. I don't know why they are spoken of in such a fashion.

If you choose to spend your money on mass produced knives and find the sometimes sub par assembly up to your standard, then by all means, there is no problem. The problem as I see it comes when people like myself come into play. I will not play the lotto, and I don't accept sub par standards. Now if Case was the only manufacturer of pocket knives, I guess i wouldn't have a choice. I do have a choice though, as do all others.

Brand loyalty is great, I am all for it. I like to show my support as much as the next person. Like Roland said though, this is being honest. The new collaboration knife looks amazing to me and I hope to be lucky enough to get one, but, it doesn't mean I support sub standard production.

I think it gets taken the wrong way when people voice concerns. I see so many people seem to get offended, but that is not my intention. Why would a guy that takes as much pride in my country as I do, want to see Case fail.
 
To the OP: I am sorry to hear about your disappointment; three strikes is bad luck, indeed. I recently returned a knife to Case which I had been eagerly anticipating for months. It had gaps between both liners and backsprings big enough to slide a piece of paper. In contrast, no light will pass through the back of my very well used old 1977 CV Case Stockman and its snap is still crisp and the scales are beautiful and well fit. Plus, the shield is pinned.

A little over a year ago, I received a Queen knife from a commonly used dealer with big fat gaps and dull blades. It looked bowed. I can abide the dull blades, as they can be sharpened, but the gaps are a no-go for me. It doesn't feel like a solid piece to me when the wind can pass through it. Plus, the anticipation of detritus-loaded springs is unappealing. Maybe it's just me. Anyway, the dealer reluctantly accepted a return after admonishing me that Barlows are historically "working knives" and relating that most of his old ones have bad fit and finish, too. He didn't have any replacements to send me so a refund was due. The notes in my Paypal return of funds read "wayy too picky." Needless to say, I have become one more selective about the dealers with whom I will work.

I guess the point is that my personal perception of what is acceptable as a buyer was much different from some other guy (trying to sell stuff for profit). Long turnaround time quotes for repair are their own deterrent to sending in warranty work. So is some great-grandfatherly admonishment about what so-and-so generation supposedly put up with for 80 bucks. In my opinion, you should not look at a knife, for which you paid money, and feel distaste. Have it made right even if it takes some time. Otherwise, you will just feel sore about it.

My old Case knives speak for themselves: they are more sound and the execution is more true. I am looking forward to getting that knife back from Case and will continue to support Case when something really strikes my fancy -but will either hand hold in advance or provide inspection instructions to the seller. In the meantime, there is... GEC :thumbup::thumbup:

Good luck with your new knives. You should at least get that Buck in for repair. The 110 is sweet.
 
jazub, well-argued. I'm very much in agreement with you, similar experiences too....
 
Although this came out from a bad personal experience, this thread brings out a very controversial topic and it's really interesting to hear opinions. I will try to point out mine here too, for what it's worth.
I appreciate very much any form of brand loyalty, although I'm not loyal to any American knife brand, so my point of view comes from a greater distance. This is not about Case, it's about the whole world of pocket knives that we love.
Like Kevin, Carl's post made me think alot about the roots of quality.
There are, in my opinion, two main steps, like two legs that keep quality standing.
The first, is in the making process of a knife, from design to making of the knife parts to assembly. In my opinion, it doesn't really matter if these steps are performed by machines, men, or any combination of the two. A worker, just like a machine, can do the job in a good or bad way. Reasons are different (old tooling or bad programming for machines, lack of training and skill for workers, and so on) but the point is the same. A factory that is interested in the quality of its products needs to pay great attention to all the making process.
The second step is quality check. A "good" factory should not allow a "flawed" product to reach the market, and a serious quality check can help alot in understanding which steps of the making process are working fine and which ones need an improvement.
It all comes down to the old path: establishing a goal, planning how to obtain it, do the job, check the results, evaluate the results (based on the goals) and get back to the start. I know it may sound simple but it's not simple at all. Yet, there is no other way.
There is one extra step in the process. If this process isn't working properly, it is "responsibility" of the buyers to make the factory face the problem. Especially the "brand loyal" buyer has every reason to give feedback to the company, positive or negative. Which could mean, stop buying their knives, sending them all back, and expressing their disappointment. Then, if the company doesn't want to listen, or doesn't care, the buyer will see what to do. But, we have to be aware that, in a market that's open enough, we have alternatives and if we fail to exert our role, we're not doing a good thing, even to our favourite company, even if we keep buying knives from them.
If getting this thing straight means spending a bit more on each knife, I'm happy to spend it to feel safe in buying an unseen product. And no, I can't ask for mother of pearl and Elmax in a stockman that I pay 20 dollars for. But I want a consistent product (of the proportional level of quality) in everything I buy. Not a shoot in the dark.
Now I can go to sleep... :D

Fausto
:cool:
 
I think a big problem with Case improving the quality of their traditional knives is that the vast majority of them don't ever get used. The average Case buyer is a collector, and doesn't seem to care much about blade rubs and liner gaps.

"The squeeky wheel gets the grease," is a very true saying. If your knife is not up to par, then sending it back for repair does all of us a favor. If repairs remain a very minor expense for Case, they are unlikely to improve their quality.
 
I have to agree with you, Fausto. Give me a consistent product even if you have charge a few dollars more. I'd gladly pay more for a knife that I can buy sight unseen without fear of having to send it back. If Case is getting many knives back in the mail, they should be addressing the problems with the workers. If the issue is not being addressed, then things go downhill from there. There's no excuse for a bad product, when enough good ones are going out the door to prove that they can do it right most of the time.

Or maybe, Case could do what Schrade did way back. Take the defects that don't pass final QC, grind off the name on the tang and sell them as blemished seconds at a bargain price for people who just want a good old working pocket knife, and don't give a hoot if there's a gap in the liners or blade is off center.

Just an idea.

Carl.
 
Just checked my jr soddie and it is pretty centered when closed but I do have a mid folding hunter that is horrible and has marks on the blade from rubbing the liners when closed. Hit me up in a pm Clich I have a few cheap and import traditionals I will hook you up with to try different patterns if you like.
 
I think some of the posts are only looking at the far ends of the manufacturing spectrum, Fully Automated, vs. Handmade. Case is neither. They are a high volume, factory made, knife made by a combination of machinery and hand work. As such, their tolerance are going to be somewhat looser than something like GEC, who does much more hand fitting and fussing and whose volume output is considerably less than Case. It does not help that Case is owned by a corporation with stockholders demanding a high return on their investment. It is a problem throughout American industry. (but having stepped up briefly on that particular soapbox, I shall quickly jump down.)

I've also seen in this thread the comparison to Victorinox. Victorinox uses completely synthetic materials, and not many sizes of handle scales or frames. The lack of size and scale variation makes for a cost effective production line. Also, the synthetic scales can be stamped or molded to exact size. For most of its knives, Case mostly uses a mix of natural and synthetic. That mix also leads to some variation, as well as to higher costs as the bone has to be dyed and cut and fitted to size. So, I am not certain that this comparison is exactly fair, though to be sure I'm a fan of Victorinox knives, which give good value for the dollar.

I also see comparison of old knives to new. I dunno. I remember the pocket knives I grew up with 40 or 50 years ago. I owned less expensive knives. I remember most of them having a bit of blade wobble and a gap here and there. Never made any matter to me as they all did the job of cutting just fine. So, while I am certain that the nice ones did not have those qualities, it is not clear to me that a fair comparison is being made of comparing a lower end Case knife to the knives of yesteryear and saying that the knives of yesteryear were all better, although no doubt many of them were.

All that being said, Buck and Case will likely go fix the knives if the OP decides he can't live with them. And there is nothing wrong with wanting what you want. But, totally IMO, I think some of the posts are comparing apples to oranges and wondering why the oranges are not red.

But I would recommend to the OP that he try a GEC. I think he would be pleased with that. They do make a fine product.
 
I agree Frank that is is somewhat apples to oranges when comparing some levels of GEC to Case. A bone CV case stockman can be had for half the price of a GEC 66 Bone Calf Roper. You know all the guys in this thread enjoy the forum and don't want to detract from it. My concern goes along with Fausto's logic. If people never send them back to Case then they will never get the point.

Its not a topic that really affects me, but it does catch my interest. It seems all too often people settle. If you want to go apples to apples compare Case to Boker tree brand. Boker will win hands down IMO. Everyone comes to their own conclusions and reading every post in this thread makes me think about my own. Its good to take into account other's views. Sometimes they think of something that would never cross my mind.

As soon as you get into the Case knives that start to be as la-tee-da as GEC the prices skyrocket, so then wouldn't it be apples to apples, at least price wise?

I was mainly comparing end results and the price of a product. To comment on the older knives I have seen, Case included, most of them impress me more then a GEC.

I hope I never seemed to even step on a soap box. I just think too many excuses lead to failure in the end. Im also of the type that does not feel that a knife needs to have poor fit and finish to be a good work knife. I hope this is taken respectfully, I mean it in no other fashion.
 
I haven't had but one knife from Case that I was unhappy with. I still have it; I need to send it to them for "repair". I will say that I like Case knives. A lot. But that doesn't mean that I'll take anything they send me. What has happened a lot in other companies in the USA may indeed be happening at Case. If so, I guarantee the problem is not "worn out tooling" even though there could be some "worn out tooling" at Case. I won't go into it any further, but generally and in companies I have worked for, these problems are due to short sightedness rather than worn out tooling or equipment.

Ed J
 
Ed, I'm not saying Case can't make a great knife just to be clear. Also, I re-read my last statement. One comment may come off wrong. I meant to say I don't think a work knife classification should translate to poor fit and finish.

I never sent back my queens, so I'm guilty of the same thing I'm talking about.
 
I've purchased quite a few Case and Buck knives over the last few years. I've not been impressed with the fit and finish of Case knives. In my experience they generally leave a little to be desired in that department. That said, they've all been fine functionally, and I've not had to send any back. My Buck knives in contrast have generallly had noticeably better fit and finish, but I wouldn't say that Buck knives are markedly better than Case. In truth, I think we are too focused on looking at our knives instead of just using them. I'm sure there are some legitimate gripes around here, but very often it seems that people are focused on minute differences that a person of 50 or 100 years ago wouldn't have even considered as they were using the knife much more out of necessity than for aesthetics. I'd also mention that I've purchased 9 Buck 110' and 112', and never had a problem with any of them.
 
Doug S said:
I'm sure there are some legitimate gripes around here, but very often it seems that people are focused on minute differences that a person of 50 or 100 years ago wouldn't have even considered as they were using the knife much more out of necessity than for aesthetics. I'd also mention that I've purchased 9 Buck 110' and 112', and never had a problem with any of them.
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I would beg to differ. What disappoints me is that (at least to me) CASE was just about the top of the heap. I started buying my own knives with my own money around '69, and I bought CASE or BOKER only. (Couldn't afford Puma... :D )

You bought a CASE knife, and it was perfect out of the box. You didn't need to go through a pile of them to "get the best one". Pulls were the same, grinds were good, fit and finish were GREAT. If they had more than one knife in stock of the model I was purchasing, I could get the old guy behind the counter to let me look at the scales to see if there was a difference in color from one to the next. That was the big concern for me those days.

I bought CASE because their knives were nearly perfect. I bought CASE based on their reputation of being good work knives (never have I been a collector) from the men I worked with at the time, as well as my father and grandfather. They looked at craftsmanship; they looked at fit and finish. They inspected the knife when new with a magnifying glass, then when it passed, dropped it in their pocket and never thought of that aspect of the knife again.

I come from a line of tight fisted squareheads, and they made me into one, too. Before someone has a conniption fit, that isn't a derogatory term around here; it is something to be admired. My father and grandfather would NEVER, EVER, spend money on a knife that wasn't 100% in all aspects. NEVER. And the knife needed to stay that way for a few years. CASE and BOKER were the knives that fit the bill.

Unlike many here, you could never sell them the nonsensical idea that bad fit, poor operation, uneven grinds, poor assembly, mismatched scales, etc., were just fine because it was a work knife. I can hear my grandfather now; what isn't a work knife? A butter knife? A cake knife? He took for granted that a knife was a tool, and was used for work. And of course, hunting and fishing.

Grandad accepted little in the way of excuses when it came to spending his hard earned cash. My Dad is the same way. I am, too. He would pay to get what he wanted, but wouldn't settle for less than he paid for when buying anything. Those were the standards and values of those days.

Robert
 
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