3 out 4 Missing found by rescue workers

bulgron said:
What makes you think these things happen to just Californians?

Plenty of city and suburban dwellers around the country are clueless about how bad things can get once they get out of town. Plenty more know, but are too lazy to do something about it.

Our cellphone-ladened, AAA to the rescue, society has made a lot of people foolish and dependent.

Don't blame Californians, blame the whole damn culture.
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Most of those getting irretrievably lost up here over the years in cars in their jeans, and no Plan B, are from south of here.
 
Wasn't there an episode of I shouldn't be Alive where the car got stranded and they stayed with it for like a week before finally setting out on foot (in the wrong direction)?
 
Quote - bulgron: All I know is, I'm not laughing at him ....
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Neither am I, bulgron.

Quote - skammer: Another tragic example of:

STAY WITH THE DAM CAR!

STAY PUT!!!!!

Still people will go be the hero and pay the price.
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I don't entirely agree with you. It all depends on circumstances, and one-size-fits-all advice doesn't always work. Many years ago, a bunch of high school kids died when their canoes overturned in an Ontario northern lake. They died because they followed the rule of thumb: "Don't leave the canoe." This advice works, but only if there is somebody that is going to rescue you. In the case of the car, the problem isn't that he left the car for help, it's that he left the car without proper gear. As far as "Don't leave the car." that only works if somebody's going to come looking for you.

Of course, I know in this case they did.

Doc
 
SkunkWerX said:
I would guess they were following a little black or red line on the map.

Maps are wonderful, but they don't show the topography very well.
What looks like an approved route, may be snowed-in hood deep.

Once you leave a heavily travelled road like an interstate, and you are in unfamiliar territory, it's real easy to find yourself in the middle of nowhere.
by the time they realized it, they were stuck.
QUOTE]

This can't be truer. I've been on the "roads" in the northern coast range in Oregon and I doubt there is a map around that actually shows what's going on in there. The place I go shoot actually has a street sign which is unusual for that type of road and I have yet to find a map that shows it or the dozen or so roads that branch off of it. My buddy and I got lost on that road and we kept driving only to end up back on the highway 5 miles down from where we started.

Update: They say they found the guys pants which is not a good sign.
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Latest news.Looks grim. He's probably hypothermic and looking at another night out.
Searchers found the gray pants Tuesday afternoon about a mile from where Kim left the road he had been following on foot.

"It could be a sign he's trying to indicate the path he was going," said Lt. Gregg Hastings of the Oregon State Police.

The discovery also could signal that Kim suffered severe hypothermia. Dr. Jon Jui, professor of emergency medicine at Oregon Health and Science University, said hypothermia causes disorientation and a false sense of warmth, leading sufferers to undress.

"This is a bad sign," he said.
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I wonder what happened. The article says he left the car at 7:45 am, but promised to turn around at 1 pm if he didn't find help. Could he have gone hypothermic and confused in that amount of time, when walking during the day? Or did he get stubborn?

There's something else weird in that article. It talks about how Kim once ate berries while stranded, even though he didn't know if they were poisonous. So he's been stranded before, somehow. And he's shown some reckless behavior in the past.

My spidey senses are telling me that there's more to this story than is in the papers....
 
Since James Kim, the lost C/NET editor, has been all over the news here in Oregon, I have been wondering about the situation he found himself in. There have been fragmentary accounts that the family burned the car's tires to help them keep warm.

I have never been that profoundly stuck and lost, but it is my understanding that most folks who are use their cars as primary shelters. I don't know that with my greater than non-existent outdoor skills whether I'd find that choice attractive at all as a car is mostly metal and glass and difficult to insulate and keep livable all at the same time. Every time someone has to go outside for any reason, all conserved heat is lost because a car door is a big hole for a small shelter.

At some point in a survival situation, the car, like the horse, mule, or dogs of yesteryear, has to be considered entirely expendable--paid off or not. The Kim's Saab 900 reportedly ran out of fuel, depriving it of the ability to pump out engine heat. Most cars don't come with lighters anymore, so that tool doesn't even matter though the battery would hold out longer than the fuel.

Even in a car "out" of fuel, its carcass has to be of some considerable use, right? I would think that the fuel system would still contain a useable amount of recoverable gasoline in the tank, even if the fuel pump couldn't get it. The fuel filter is probably containing some flammable deposits in it. There is antifreeze in it, though someone would have to think of a use for it. The motor oil, transmission fluid, any gear oil, etcetera is flammable under certain conditions and if nothing else, is hydrophobic, as is any grease anywhere it could be found in the wheel bearings or steering gear. The carpet mats, and in a wagon such as a Saab, the cargo mat, is either entirely synthetic rubber or some form of waterproof material under carpet. The alternator and electrical harness have hundreds of feet of usuable wire in them. There is yards of rubbery belts and hoses and lots of scavengable plastic material. Two to six airbags, the list of stuff is enormous, the question is to what uses could that stuff be put if you wanted to stay within easy distance of the car?

What else could be stripped from a car and put to better use in an emergency such as that faced by the Kim's?

I was wondering if he could have fashioned a hat out of the upholstery or carpet and some wire from the engine bay. I was also wondering if he could have fashioned galoshes from the floor/cargo mats or the weatherproofing in the fender wells. Could he have sucessfully used wheel bearing grease as a water barrier on the feet, legs, and face? Maybe he could have burned every flammable bit of that car instead of just the tires to create as black a signal fire as possible?

Thoughts?
 
DOC-CANADA said:
It all depends on circumstances, and one-size-fits-all advice doesn't always work.
Doc
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I agree with this. I am pretty heavily involved with SAR both teaching and working. My rule, which can change but there would have to be a really good reason goes like this. If I am on a known road/trail I would stay put and make myself as visible as possible. Trails/roads/drainages and other points of interest like outlooks, lakes, etc. are always going searched first in an organized search. If I am bushwhacking or in an area where there is no real "handrails" for the search teams to use, and I am in good shape physically, I will probably try to, get myself somewhere more likely to be discovered. Visible by the way means by ground and air and also includes making noise.

Saying this I am sure he did what he thought was best for his family and truly hope that this ends with him being rescued, but I am not unfortunately optimistic.

KR
 
Thomas Linton said:
They were in a forest. I have seen no mention of an effort to start a wood fire. Did I miss it?
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It might have been forest but I was under the impression that they got to where they were by going down a closed, or "pass at your own risk" type of road and got stuck on that road.

If I am wrong please let me know.

KR
 
Boats said:
I was wondering if he could have fashioned a hat out of the upholstery or carpet and some wire from the engine bay. I was also wondering if he could have fashioned galoshes from the floor/cargo mats or the weatherproofing in the fender wells. Could he have sucessfully used wheel bearing grease as a water barrier on the feet, legs, and face? Maybe he could have burned every flammable bit of that car instead of just the tires to create as black a signal fire as possible?

Thoughts?
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My most immediate thought is that before someone decides to cannibalize their car, they have to first recognize that they're in a serious survival situation. My readings on the subject suggest that people often downplay the seriousness of their situation until it's way too late. The delay between being in a survival situation and knowing that you're in a survival situation can get you killed.

Consider our wayward driver. He somehow got lost, went down the wrong road and got stuck far enough from the freeway for it to matter. He's already shown himself to not be particularly aware of his worsening condition. As many people have noted, why didn't he just turn around and go back to the freeway before he got stuck miles and miles up some mountain road?

At this point, I have no doubt that the fellow thought himself inconvenienced. He probably tried the cellphone. No service. Did he try text messaging? He should have because often times text messages will go through even when voice will not. Then he might have gotten his family comfortable and decided to simply wait for another motorist, perhaps a snowplow, to come along.

How much food and water did he have at that point? How warm were his clothes? And at what point did the rigours of his situation start to erode his (already questionable) judgement?

I raise these questions because it seems to me that it takes a certain mental aclarity, not to mention a recognized need for creative problem solving, to start cannibalizing your car for shelter- and clothing- making materials. It may be that by the time the fellow realized how bad his situation was, he was too far gone to think his way out of the problem.

My understanding is the guy was on a mountain road, covered with snow, and no doubt surrounded by trees. If it was me, I'd be building a debris hut, or a snow cave, almost immediately, and burning oil from my engine block by way of sending up a signal as soon as it was light enough out for the signal to be seen. And then I'd leave my family only when it was a choice between walk out or starve to death. He'd only been at it a week, so starving was probably not yet a threat, especially considering the good shape that his wife and children were found in.

No doubt a wife with two small children, one an infant, played a part in his decision to try to hike out. Sometimes it is the external stresses of the situation -- a complaining partner, a deadline to 'get home' that you think you MUST meet, fear of the darkness, who knows? -- that pushes people to make a bad decision.

But cannibalizing your car, taking it apart for survival purposes, wow, that's a real admission that you're in deep soup. To do that, you're right there facing the fearful situation you're in head-on. You're looking into a real abyss when you start to take your car apart in order to survive. I believe it is a rare person who will come to that decision while he still has sufficient wits about him for it to do him any good.
 
DOC-CANADA said:
Neither am I, bulgron.



I don't entirely agree with you. It all depends on circumstances, and one-size-fits-all advice doesn't always work. Many years ago, a bunch of high school kids died when their canoes overturned in an Ontario northern lake. They died because they followed the rule of thumb: "Don't leave the canoe." This advice works, but only if there is somebody that is going to rescue you. In the case of the car, the problem isn't that he left the car for help, it's that he left the car without proper gear. As far as "Don't leave the car." that only works if somebody's going to come looking for you.

Of course, I know in this case they did.

Doc
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Until we all own crystal balls.

STAY WITH THE DAMN CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Searchers are looking for the car not a dead lump under the snow. ITs instant shelter and a large search target. Burn the damn carpets and anything that will light but STAY WITH THE DAMN CAR!!!!!!

BREAK OFF THE MIRRORS TO SIGNAL. BUST OPEN THE GAS TANK TO GET THE REST OF the FUEL BUT.

STAY WITH THE DAMN CAR!!!!!!!

I couldnt leave the wife and kids to fend for themselves anyway. AT least we will die as a family if need be, but hey thats me. I bet he didn't get 2 miles from the vehicle before buying the farm.

SKam
 
If I was 9 days out I would seriously consider cannibalizing the car. Having stuff that makes my survival easier is way worth a few thousand dollars in repair cost.
 
I am aware of the delay between being in a survival situation and coming to the same reckoning, a period I daresay would be far shorter among the regulars of this board as opposed to the general public.

That said, they had already begun to cannibalize their car. I don't know exactly how such a conversation would go down, because I'd be burning up the easier parts of the forest well before burning up my recoverable car, but at some point they decided that at least the tires were expendable.

It seems to me that just like real survival cannibalism, the Rubicon had been crossed in regards to the car. That car was going nowhere fast after burning off its tires. Why not take its lubricants at the least? I don't think it would take me long in tennis shoes and cotton socks to take a look at fashioning something way more insulative and water repellant, probably out of the airbags, other changes of socks, and grease if nothing better presented itself. Maybe grease the uppers of the shoes themselves. I do know that cold feet are awfully distracting, and once your feet go your options are tremendously diminished, even if you decide to stay put, because everything becomes exponentially harder to accomplish.
 
Boats said:
It seems to me that just like real survival cannibalism, the Rubicon had been crossed in regards to the car. That car was going nowhere fast after burning off its tires. Why not take its lubricants at the least? I don't think it would take me long in tennis shoes and cotton socks to take a look at fashioning something way more insulative and water repellant, probably out of the airbags, other changes of socks, and grease if nothing better presented itself. Maybe grease the uppers of the shoes themselves. I do know that cold feet are awfully distracting, and once your feet go your options are tremendously diminished, even if you decide to stay put, because everything becomes exponentially harder to accomplish.
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re: the car and the Rubicon. True enough.

I still feel like there's more to this story than the press is telling us. For example, I just read a news report in which the Sheriff describes the guy as "a sharp individual with a strong will to live." But then someone else on this board said the guy had to go around a "Road Closed, Proceed at your own risk" sign in order to get to where he got stuck. There seems to be a real contradiction here.

Also, he walked two miles down a road, then decided to leave the road and go into a drainage area? Whatever for? The Sheriff seems as mystified as I am.

Point is, for all we know maybe the guy DID cannabilize his car for better insulation and waterproofing.

I keep trying to put myself in this guy's shoes and I just can't get there. At the point he drove around a road closed sign, that screams "poor judgement" to me. Maybe he really didn't do it? Maybe the sign was easy to miss? The only thing I know for sure is I don't have the entire story on this one.
 
bulgron said:
re: the car and the Rubicon. True enough.

I still feel like there's more to this story than the press is telling us. For example, I just read a news report in which the Sheriff describes the guy as "a sharp individual with a strong will to live." But then someone else on this board said the guy had to go around a "Road Closed, Proceed at your own risk" sign in order to get to where he got stuck. There seems to be a real contradiction here.

Also, he walked two miles down a road, then decided to leave the road and go into a drainage area? Whatever for? The Sheriff seems as mystified as I am.

Point is, for all we know maybe the guy DID cannabilize his car for better insulation and waterproofing.

I keep trying to put myself in this guy's shoes and I just can't get there. At the point he drove around a road closed sign, that screams "poor judgement" to me. Maybe he really didn't do it? Maybe the sign was easy to miss? The only thing I know for sure is I don't have the entire story on this one.
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Actually I thought the news report said the map was marked that the road may not be suitable for travel in winter. Maybe they missed that on the map. You would hope the road was also marked but maybe it was missing. As far as the drainage. Many people think drainages are an easy route to a river. Its downhill and relatively free of vegetation and once they get to the river they figure that they will come to civilization. He may have been looking at a road that was going uphill, could have gone on for miles, been hard to walk on because of blowdowns and been suffering from hypothermia. Its hard to know. Hopefully the sherriff will get a chance to ask him. Like I said before roads/trails/drainages and points of interest are always the first things to search when doing what is called a hasty (type 1) search. Many times that is where you will find the subjects. Especially certain types of subjects.

KR
 
To give him the benefit of the doubt, he got himself stuck where he was in darkness, where a sign might not be as large as imagined, or opened illegally by snowmobilers or such. Earlier in the evening that they disappeared, the family had dinner in Roseburg, which is just off of I-5, south of Eugene by about an hour.

However, getting stuck on a spur road in the dark in an area in which the localized "real" maps will readily tell you are not plowed in the winter, still takes some really bad non-hypothermic judgement. Here the local news has been speculating that the Kims, with two laptops on board, may have been depending on some sort of cellular internet or previously downloaded maps from one of the internet services, none of which AFAIK, prints up with advisory information, to pick out a direct way to Gold Beach from I-5.

Problem is that in this case, the direct route is a disaster, and moreso if you miss it. Why he didn't cut his losses after entering a snowbound area in a car with such limited ground clearance, by promptly turning around, is something I'd like to hear about. It seems that he was always doubling down after getting behind.

The later decision to try to hike out, and once hiking out to abandon the road for the drainage, are explicable in terms of clouded judgement brought about by incipient hypothermia, hunger, and garden variety guilt. Nothing about getting stuck up there in the first place is very explicable to me.
 
kr1 said:
It might have been forest but I was under the impression that they got to where they were by going down a closed, or "pass at your own risk" type of road and got stuck on that road.

If I am wrong please let me know.

KR
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If we can trust the TV coverage, the road is through a heavily-forested area --- lots of evergreens.

And Boats, adults show an amazing tendency to NOT turn around and go back. They seem to think the solution is just around the next bend or over the next hill.

If I couldn't go back, my first thought would have been to build a big fire for warmth/signal. At the first, they had plenty of means to get even evergreens going -- gasoline, tires, carpet. A jack handle would have busted off branches. Heck, there was tons of stuff to build a super brush shelter.
 
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