-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
3 out 4 Missing found by rescue workers
- Thread starter SkunkWerX
- Start date
This is called paradoxical undressing and is fairly common with people who succumb to hypothermia.
I do believe that he was doing what he thought was the best thing that he could do for his family. I have no doubt about that and his death saddens me. I do have problems with him being characterized as a hero. He was desperate and reacted in a desperate manner to a very bad situation that he caused that didn't have a good outcome for himself and would not have helped his family.
I'm not blaming him for something that could happen to just about anyone but he should not be held up as a poster boy for a succesful model to save yourself or family if you get caught in this type of situation as the press seems to be doing.
KR
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2001
- Messages
- 1,236
by all accounts this guy was in the proper state of mind. He had promised to make it back by 1 pm, probably lied to his wife I know i would. had brought extra clothes to leave a trail behind for rescue team. To assume this guy was out of his head is a bit far fetch, because he was able to follow the map and back track, it takes some sort of brains to do that, and he was very very motivated by all accounts and wasn't wandering aimlessly. He had a clear direction he was going. Experience woodsman are still puzzled and surprise how far he was able to travel. He didn't get delusional after a couple of hours out there either probably much much much later though. Its not the food that gets you delusional its the water. chances are they may have had enough water to prevent that.
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2003
- Messages
- 3,330
I don't think he was suffering from diminished capacity when he decided to set out, but he was operating off of a really bad set of assumptions that he was fit enough, equipped enough, or savvy enough to succeed.
When he left the relatively easy progress and effortless orientation of the road for the creek drainage that he eventually died in, his mental train must have jumped the track before that point. It is one thing to travel down hill on a road and then face the prospect of hiking back up switchbacks or a grade, it is quite another to be descending in a creek bed and be looking up at 45 degree slopes and remain confident in what you are doing going forward. The road always holds options, splashing around in a creek is not rational and is tantamount to a death sentence in winter up here with his gear and knowledge level.
I think he sweated on the road, got hypothermic, wandered off the road "seeing" some opportunity that didn't exist, and died for it, probably the day after he departed. That the Medical Examiner couldn't determine the time of Kim's death probably means that he was stone cold dead when found, with no appreciable body warmth to measure for the merest suggestion of when he perished. That means he probably died sooner rather than later in the search efforts made on Saturday and thereafter.
I think his leaving the road was one last shortcut, one last wrong turn, this one born of delusion.
When he left the relatively easy progress and effortless orientation of the road for the creek drainage that he eventually died in, his mental train must have jumped the track before that point. It is one thing to travel down hill on a road and then face the prospect of hiking back up switchbacks or a grade, it is quite another to be descending in a creek bed and be looking up at 45 degree slopes and remain confident in what you are doing going forward. The road always holds options, splashing around in a creek is not rational and is tantamount to a death sentence in winter up here with his gear and knowledge level.
I think he sweated on the road, got hypothermic, wandered off the road "seeing" some opportunity that didn't exist, and died for it, probably the day after he departed. That the Medical Examiner couldn't determine the time of Kim's death probably means that he was stone cold dead when found, with no appreciable body warmth to measure for the merest suggestion of when he perished. That means he probably died sooner rather than later in the search efforts made on Saturday and thereafter.
I think his leaving the road was one last shortcut, one last wrong turn, this one born of delusion.
- Joined
- May 19, 2005
- Messages
- 12,709
If this is true, then he went a hell of a long way through rough terrain while in a rapidly diminishing state.
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2003
- Messages
- 3,330
I don't know what else would explain it.
Like I said earlier, I am familiar with the region in which he was stranded if not the exact spot. The area surrounding the Rogue River is tremendously rugged and I can't think of any advantage he may have been trying to exploit by leaving the road and going down hill through a drainage.
Some pics:
Black Bar Lodge. Closed in the winter, but has a diesel generator and probably ample firewood for its fireplace, bedding, and something canned to eat.
The Rogue at Mule Creek.
Unspecified location, but univiting for a hike.
Being on the bottom land, on foot, in the winter. Why would you want to be there?
Like I said earlier, I am familiar with the region in which he was stranded if not the exact spot. The area surrounding the Rogue River is tremendously rugged and I can't think of any advantage he may have been trying to exploit by leaving the road and going down hill through a drainage.
Some pics:
Black Bar Lodge. Closed in the winter, but has a diesel generator and probably ample firewood for its fireplace, bedding, and something canned to eat.
The Rogue at Mule Creek.
Unspecified location, but univiting for a hike.
Being on the bottom land, on foot, in the winter. Why would you want to be there?
- Joined
- May 19, 2005
- Messages
- 12,709
I agree that from our 20,000 foot perspective, diminished capacity is the likeliest explanation for why he went down into the drainage. But then, he went and made it all those miles after that ... which is the jaw-dropping surprising thing to me.
Those pictures you posted show some extremely rugged terrain. However, what are the chances that the drainage was frozen/shallow enough for him to walk on without coming up to his crotch in freezing water?
I keep looking at this picture and scratching my head. He made it some 4 miles (?) down a drainage in freezing temperatures, after forgoing food for at least a week, and in cotton street clothes + tennis shoes?
I'm pretty convinced that he didn't know the Black Bar Lodge was there. Heat, shelter and a possible food source just a mile or two up the road ... seems like the first place to head to, if you know its there.
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2003
- Messages
- 3,330
News reports indicate that Big Windy Creek is shallow, not that it matters in tennis shoes and cotton socks how deep the water is, it's killer. If it's like every other creek I have seen at similar elevation in Western Oregon outside of the Columbia Gorge, there is next to no chance that it was substantially frozen anywhere in its travel.
Kim's body was reportedly found fully clothed and on his back in the creek. That's not rational unless the creek bed was the only path given the ruggedness of the terrain and the abundance of brush.
Kati Kim told officials that they had heard helicopters at least twice. You would think the conclusion is that someone is looking, even if they aren't there yet.
Best view of the drainage I have seen as it looks this week.
Kim's body was reportedly found fully clothed and on his back in the creek. That's not rational unless the creek bed was the only path given the ruggedness of the terrain and the abundance of brush.
Kati Kim told officials that they had heard helicopters at least twice. You would think the conclusion is that someone is looking, even if they aren't there yet.
Best view of the drainage I have seen as it looks this week.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2005
- Messages
- 174
As much as I dislike the idea of second guessing someone else's decisions, I can't help but think that if the Kim's had a simple crank powered radio in there possession that might have changed the whole situation.
I imagine that once the gasoline was used up, the car battery quickly followed, leaving the Kims without any contact to the rest of the world. If they had a working radio, one would think that they would have heard that search teams were out looking for them, this knowlede would probably have led them to believe that help was coming. Even in most remote areas, an AM signal can be recieved. I currently have a simple radio like this in my primary travel vechicle, but I may replace it, as it is pretty "toy-like".
This event has definitely changed the way I think about things: Taking a look at my car, I noticed that by ripping out the window washer tubing, you could easily get enough tubing to siphen gas out of the gas tank. Which should allow you to get a fire started regardless of the condition of the wood. I am however, going to have to start including some fire starting method in my vechicle.
Sean
I imagine that once the gasoline was used up, the car battery quickly followed, leaving the Kims without any contact to the rest of the world. If they had a working radio, one would think that they would have heard that search teams were out looking for them, this knowlede would probably have led them to believe that help was coming. Even in most remote areas, an AM signal can be recieved. I currently have a simple radio like this in my primary travel vechicle, but I may replace it, as it is pretty "toy-like".
This event has definitely changed the way I think about things: Taking a look at my car, I noticed that by ripping out the window washer tubing, you could easily get enough tubing to siphen gas out of the gas tank. Which should allow you to get a fire started regardless of the condition of the wood. I am however, going to have to start including some fire starting method in my vechicle.
Sean
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2004
- Messages
- 210
That is a good point, however most vehicles newer than say the late 80's usually have a screen right before the tank to prevent syphoning of gas. It might be a prudent idea to use something solid to rip through it in advance. I did just cause I tend to be lazy and don't like going to get gas when the 4 wheeler runs out... I just fill up from my tank.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2005
- Messages
- 174
Hmmm...didn't know that about the screen. It's information like this, that makes this forum so useful. Doubt I'll rip through it now, but in the event I needed to,I bet I could use the rod that holds the hood open to do the task. At least NOW I know that it is in there and wouldn't be wasting my time trying to figure out why I can't get my siphen to work properly...
Sean
Sean