3 quench vs. 3 normalization

The first part is a standard thermal cycling procedure, which I use. It starts with two descending temperature quenches, and ends with a normalization. After that procedure the steel is ready for the final quench.

Triple normalizing, with descending heats will accomplish excellent stress relief, but won't refine the grain. It is a good procedure for stock removal, where the grain size is normally already fine. The procedure you use will give you good results, and is metallurgically sound.
However, if you forge, the multiple quenches in thermal cycling will refine the grain that may have grown during all the heats. Not doing it won't mess up a blade, but the final grain may be a bit less fine.

My last comment was about using three hardening quenches in a row. This may induce stress, and unless the temps are dropped at each quench, won't reduce grain appreciably beyond the first hardening. My problem with this system isn't the system itself, but the claims of extraordinary grain refinement and higher hardness. Those who want to use this system will make a fine knife if they hit the HT right, but the last quench is the only one that will matter. The long and short of it is that this method will make a good knife...but there is no magic in the procedure.





From the Moderator:
This is an old discussion, with strong opinions on both sides. I will drop it as for myself, now. Those who wish to continue the discussion feel free to do so, but keep it civil. Many of these threads end up being locked.


Ok.. Thanks. I am glad you mentioned forging. Because about 50% of what I make is forged. I always try to get what I need to get done as fast as I can when forging. I really don't know for sure how bad I am messing up the steel when I do forge so I want to do everything I can to make things right.
 
So the number three is magic ?

RollEyes smiley

When talking about 5160 and 52100 which we are the number three seems to be the right number. just like tempering three times is of great benefit but by the fourth you are doing nothing more. It seems a little pointless to argue with someone who obviously has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Because if you had correctly tested these methods strength wise and cutting ability against a single quench blade you would not be typing such uninformed juvenile comments.

Big smiley face!
 
In no way am I saying that because I use three quenches that my blades are magical but I am saying that my triple quench blades far surpass the performance of any of my single quench blades. They also far surpass any benchmade, zero tolerance, and fox n690 steel, among many others.

So magic is not the word I would use better then before is.

By the way I use 5160 and to beat 154cm and n690 in cutting performance with 5160 I think is a pretty good accomplishment. My heat treated cpm154 steel is so far the only thing that beats it and that is a single quench blade.
 
Last edited:
The common theme of certain questionable methods is that anyone who doesn't agree has either not done it or did it wrong. I also get a kick out of the folks who go on about decreased grain size, increased hardness and a few other claims, that are clearly only getting it from the one source that has yet to produced the data to back it up. It mirrors the blind followers of the "edge packing" myth. Some very reputable makers dropped that like a hot brick once the spell was broken. The sad reality is that most knifemakers are decades(if not, centuries) behind the ball when it comes to metallurgy. I have a hard time understanding what attracts folks to the most complicated, hole-ridden methods... is it the romantic notion of finding "magic formula" somehow overlooked by science? One of the latest frontiers in metallurgy involves alloying in zero gravity on the friggin' space station... HT methods of carbon steels have already been mapped out... boring but consistent.
 
Last edited:
Chad... could remind me what your heat treating equipment consists of, again?
 
I have had conversations with a few of those makers on there decision to not triple quench anymore. never was there answer that it did not help performance. For the most part it was they had overwhelming numbers of knives to make and the gain in performance did not out way the time it took them to complete the triple quench process. The choice to not triple quench was solely for time managment reasons and because either way they never had a complaint so why go through the trouble.

Again I am not saying that a single quench blade does not yield a great knife, but why not make it greater if you can?
 
So you are triple normalizing, triple quenching and triple tempering with a Paragon kiln? What temperatures are you using for each process?
 
Chad... could remind me what your heat treating equipment consists of, again?

Rick you are a great maker and you make already what I am striving for in a knife. resently I have had someone tell me that I am designing basically one of your knives and I did not even realize it. I am not saying that I make a better knife then anyone here because I have not tested against your knives but I have tested against very highly sought after manufactured knives and have easily come out on top.

I only wish I had the money to order one of your knives. Thankyou for striving at your work and to give many others like my self to better our selves also.
 
So you are triple normalizing, triple quenching and triple tempering with a Paragon kiln? What temperatures are you using for each process?

I normalize at 1600
Thermal cycle at 1350
Anneal at 1000
Quench at 1490

1490 is as of my test results on grain size and hardness from my kiln and steel this may change with the new bar I got.
 
We are all just trying to do the best we can with the knowledge we currently possess, Chad. Some things have worked out well but I've had more than my share of bad ideas.:rolleyes: Thanks for the compliments.:)
 
...I have tested against very highly sought after manufactured knives and have easily come out on top.

To which manufactured knives are you comparing your blades? That's not saying much. In fact, in the context of this discussion it most likely doesn't mean anything at all.
 
To which manufactured knives are you comparing your blades? That's not saying much. In fact, in the context of this discussion it most likely doesn't mean anything at all.

Benchmades 154cm

Fox n690

Zt 154cm

And in this case that is huge. the test was cutting performance on cardboard.
 
This is the exact same schedule I use for 52100 also.
And I just bought a hardness tester last week, so I know I'm getting 65-66.
What quenchant are you using, if you don't mind me asking?

Hey Leif, I use McMaster-Carr 11 sec. oil for 52100. I should have mentioned that my procedure is strictly for stock removal. Stacy is correct in saying that forgers would benefit from other methods.
 
Hey Leif, I use McMaster-Carr 11 sec. oil for 52100. I should have mentioned that my procedure is strictly for stock removal. Stacy is correct in saying that forgers would benefit from other methods.

Hey darrin you should check your email.
 
I did and sent you a reply. Let me know if it didn't go through and I'll send another one.
 
Not much to add to this discussion, just some fun distraction pics...

Last month, I played around with various 52100 ht techniques - mostly based on Stacy+Darrin+KevinCashen recommendations. I ran around 20 differents combination of ht methods using my evenheat oven. Aldo 52100 1/8 steel. Frankly, I am not that happy with the results, all could be due to my bungled attempts and not to mentioned being new at this. Canola oil ~120F quenchant. Also, I did some experiment using water & brine with good grain refinement but too dicy & hard to replicate, therefore abandoned.

Kind of reproducible results:

Grain after 1 normalized at 1700F
52100 single normalized 1700.jpg

With Tracy's triple quenches + sub-zero (lol - I screwed up along somewhere, hence fat grain). I made a petty with it. So so perf.
std_tripple_plus_1_dry_ice_62rc small.jpg

Darrin's triple norm > Stacy's triple quench + KevinCashen's 1480 (ok, I added extra 5degrees). I made a 4" fixed util blade with it. Better perf.
triple normalize and quenches 60rc.jpg

My current target
latest target.jpg
 
Back
Top