3V vs S35VN characteristics?

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hardheart said:
Well, they can't add much niobium and still be able to PM the steel or heat treat it similarly. The niobium stays locked up in carbides at austenizing temps and the carbides affect the melt to where it can't be atomized cleanly if the percentage is too high. Vanadium can strengthen the chromium carbide while the niobium forms its own carbides without bumping up the hardness of the chromium carbide. Great for limiting grain growth in the austenite and improving toughness, but can cause its own issues. A little goes a long way, just like 13% chromium is no big deal and where stainless starts, but 13% vanadium is ridiculous and very rarely encountered.

Also the ease of field sharpening thing comes from a romantic idea of having nothing but your knife and being able to do anything and then sharpen the dull blade with whatever you have available. Of course all the steels we are discussing are way too wear resistant for that to be fun or practical, even something like dull 8Cr13MoV would be a hassle on a river rock
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I know what you mean.

What they should have done IMO was Bump the Chromium to around 16%, left the Carbon alone or bumped it to around 1.7% then they could have dropped the Vanadium down to 3% and they might have had something.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
Watch my cut test videos. We aren't talking about edge rolling, we are talking total edge warping. This isn't your run of the mill "rolling" like you are imagining.

Yes, thicker blade stock will help prevent the failure in my videos.
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Holy crap. If that whole shiny area was rolled that badly, there are serious problems. I've cut metal (copper tv wire) with chops from a $7 Cold Steel machete with no damage at about 20 degrees per side. The edge had also been thinned to about 0.015" at the back of the edge bevel. I notice in the other thread that someone rolled the edge of a CRK fixed blade cutting wood, and then sounded as though they thought it was their fault. Regardless of whether or not the fixed blade was S35VN, something is going on with these knives.
 
me2 said:
Holy crap. If that whole shiny area was rolled that badly, there are serious problems. I've cut metal (copper tv wire) with chops from a $7 Cold Steel machete with no damage at about 20 degrees per side. The edge had also been thinned to about 0.015" at the back of the edge bevel. I notice in the other thread that someone rolled the edge of a CRK fixed blade cutting wood, and then sounded as though they thought it was their fault. Regardless of whether or not the fixed blade was S35VN, something is going on with these knives.
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Yeah, they are either too thin and or too soft.
 
Ankerson said:
I know what you mean.

What they should have done IMO was Bump the Chromium to around 16%, left the Carbon alone or bumped it to around 1.7% then they could have dropped the Vanadium down to 3% and they might have had something.
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lol, yeah, Elmax. Personally, I don't think they needed something else at this level. CPM154, S30V, and S90V make a nice trio as is, imo. Just me myself and I, but I have no interest in Elmax, because it is a ''step up' from S30V. I want the express elevator to the penthouse. Something close isn't going to sway me much. I'm going to get the PM2 in M390, and if it tickles my fancy as it has for others, that would be about the minimum 'step up' I would look for in another stainless.
 
hardheart said:
lol, yeah, Elmax. Personally, I don't think they needed something else at this level. CPM154, S30V, and S90V make a nice trio as is, imo. Just me myself and I, but I have no interest in Elmax, because it is a ''step up' from S30V. I want the express elevator to the penthouse. Something close isn't going to sway me much. I'm going to get the PM2 in M390, and if it tickles my fancy as it has for others, that would be about the minimum 'step up' I would look for in another stainless.
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Ah you caught that one, I thought you were sleeping. :D

Personally I would be happier than anything if they just used CPM 154, it's just a really good steel with great performance.

I do think it's really funny that they thought they could harden S35VN to what it seems to be and get away with it, it's not the same steel as S30V.

Surly they will figure it out, maybe change the HT some.
 
Actually you have a good point there Jim. Why didn't they just use CPM-154? On the chart, it seems to have equal toughness to S30V, plus it's easier to grind. Frankly, I lost the urge to buy the 0551 when I heard it would use S35VN rather than Vanax 35 simply because I never felt S30V needed more toughness or was that difficult to sharpen. I will admit being guilty of wanting the steel in my CRK Umnumzaan, though the lack of availability wasn't enough to make me reconsider my purchase of the knife because again, I never felt toughness was an issue with S30V.

I would say CRK's issue was that it was BOTH too soft and too thin. Particularly with that hollow grind.
 
I have just posted this in the zt section but think it may be answered better here.

Right, I am confused

Ankerson, who you (CTS) say you hold in high regard has s35vn at 59 in the same group as s30v at 60.
This is two full groups ahead of s30v at 58.5.
So at only 0.5 harder, he has s35vn a lot better than s30v in his edge retention test which is totally different to what your claiming.
I am no expert but I like learning this stuff so could someone explain this please?
Sorry if it has already been answered.
 
P1GEONPOO said:
I have just posted this in the zt section but think it may be answered better here.

Right, I am confused

Ankerson, who you (CTS) say you hold in high regard has s35vn at 59 in the same group as s30v at 60.
This is two full groups ahead of s30v at 58.5.
So at only 0.5 harder, he has s35vn a lot better than s30v in his edge retention test which is totally different to what your claiming.
I am no expert but I like learning this stuff so could someone explain this please?
Sorry if it has already been answered.
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In the categories that I set up with the percentages the way they are S35VN and S30V came in the same category in my testing.

Doing it by hand I can't get the percentages down to what CATRA is, I believe CATRA is like 3%, I am around 10 to 13% or so, the difference in CATRA is 11% performance between 35VN and 30V so that is within my percentages.

Don't look at the Categories and think that is set in stone, what they mean is those steels in the categories give about the same performance, it's not exact, no way it can be doing it by hand.

All that says is they are close, both the S30V blade and S35VN blades were Spydercos, Mule (S35VN) and Military (S30V).
 
Ankerson said:
In the categories that I set up with the percentages the way they are S35VN and S30V came in the same category in my testing.

Doing it by hand I can't get the percentages down to what CATRA is, I believe CATRA is like 3%, I am around 10 to 13% or so.

Don't look at the Categories and think that is set in stone, what they mean is those steels in the categories give about the same performance, it's not exact, no way it can be doing it by hand.

All that says is they are close, both the S30V blade and S35VN blades were Spydercos, Mule (S35VN) and Military (S30V).
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OK Thanks. I was just suprised to see s35vn two catergories above s30v at only 0.5 harder. Hearing all this I was expecting it to score in the bottom group as CTS is claiming it is worse than 440 and 8cr.
 
P1GEONPOO said:
OK Thanks. I was just suprised to see s35vn two catergories above s30v at only 0.5 harder.
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Once S30V gets below 59 HRC it's just horrid edge retention wise, the sweet spot is 59-60 HRC.
 
P1GEONPOO said:
Thanks again, that makes it clearer to understand.:thumbup:
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No problem. :)

S35VN is just too new yet to really know what it will really do at different hardness.

The Mules did well.

The other knife I have in S35VN..... Not so well, rolling flattening ect...... I couldn't even test it on the 5/8" rope, it lost sharpness too fast.
 
Jim, I have some S35VN. If you can find a smith to make a knife and run it full hardness I'll donate the steel. It's around mule thickness give or take some. It should be a maker with the right equipment and experience though. Temp. controlled oven, cryo, hardness tester, etc.

I'll leave it to you to decide Jim if this a project you want to run. I've got too many things going now to do it but I could probably get a piece water jet cut and sent.

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
Jim, I have some S35VN. If you can find a smith to make a knife and run it full hardness I'll donate the steel. It's around mule thickness give or take some. It should be a maker with the right equipment and experience though. Temp. controlled oven, cryo, hardness tester, etc.

I'll leave it to you to decide Jim if this a project you want to run. I've got too many things going now to do it but I could probably get a piece water jet cut and sent.

Joe
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That might be a good idea. :)
 
singularity35 said:
Would it have been too thin if it was not as soft?

Or let me rephrase, would it have been too thin if it had been S30V at 60?
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Been using my Umnumzaan, S30V at 59.5 HRC at work and it's holding up extremely well.

That thin Hollow Grind just eats cardboard.
 
Ankerson said:
Been using my Umnumzaan, S30V at 59.5 HRC at work and it's holding up extremely well.

That thin Hollow Grind just eats cardboard.
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that's why i really liked my buck vantage pro ;)

S35VN is fairly new and is just starting to get used in more knives, but i don't see it out shinning S30V. my prediction is that most people will find both of these steels very similar in use. if that's the case, my thinking is: why "upgrade" to the same.
 
I have both S30V and S35VN CRKs. I've used my S30V models since 2005 and they do perform well. Have not beat on the two S35VN Insingos yet but they do seem easy to sharpen. Similar to 1095 in some respects. Looks like I need to take them for a spin this weekend and see what they can really do before they lose a working edge.
 
Ankerson said:
Been using my Umnumzaan, S30V at 59.5 HRC at work and it's holding up extremely well.
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Hey Sir, that reminds me. (And I'm sorry if this has been answered in advance, but...) CRK lists his HT of S30V as targeting 58-59 HRC... Did you just get "lucky" with that Umnumzaan, or did you have it "re-cooked" with 59-60 as your target?
 
ohmyheckinslc said:
Hey Sir, that reminds me. (And I'm sorry if this has been answered in advance, but...) CRK lists his HT of S30V as targeting 58-59 HRC... Did you just get "lucky" with that Umnumzaan, or did you have it "re-cooked" with 59-60 as your target?
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That is just a range, the actual HRC number can be + or - 1.

Same with Jim's hardness tests. Keep in mind all HRC testing is + or - 1 accuracy.
 
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