3V vs S35VN characteristics?

[jimnolimit]

The infamous Cliff Stamp has a post on the front page of Spyderco's forum (thread "The future of S30V?") on this topic that raises some good possibilities for why they aren't

thanks, i just read the whole thread.

my take on it is this: why would i want to upgrade from S30V to S35VN if the only benefit is a little more toughness with the same, maybe slightly less wear resistance? logically, from a knife user's perspective, i don't see the need.

S35VN seems like the answer to a question nobody asked.

 

[hardheart]

S35VN is the answer to anyone who wanted more toughness or easier finishing. S30V is rather ubiquitous at the enthusiast price point, it is more a baseline than a standout performer for steel snobs. If it is easier to sharpen, easier to make pretty, and harder to chip, then it's a lot better for a much larger segment of the population. It isn't for the guys who wanted the next S110V. But we need to see how it performs overall compared to other alloys.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

thanks, i just read the whole thread.

my take on it is this: why would i want to upgrade from S30V to S35VN if the only benefit is a little more toughness with the same, maybe slightly less wear resistance? logically, from a knife user's perspective, i don't see the need.

S35VN seems like the answer to a question nobody asked.

Think about it from a knife makers standpoint. The switch saves them loads of money in machining costs.

If they can convince everyone that it's the best thing since sliced bread (S30V) then they can cut costs tremendously while still keeping people happy.

 

[sodak]

Jim, thank you for chiming in! I have been crucified over these tests and my findings. You should have seen what went down in the CRK forum after the seb went dull.

As it stands, I am not buying any more S35VN blades. I am going to wait until they figure out that it needs to be ran harder.

I don't care what CATRA testing and all that crap says. S35VN goes dull SUPER fast in real use. I almost feel like the knife industry is BSing the people into thinking this is an improvement. Thanks Jim.

I had the same experience with S30V several years ago.

You haven't been a member here that long; go read Cliff Stamp's posting history. I think you'll find it educational on many levels.

Ain't that the truth! They are educational.

I don't think anyone here thinks that Crucible fabricated the results, just that they aren't reflective of real-world experience. What's at issue is how S35VN performs at the thinness typical of a knife edge, as well as how it performs with the particular heat treat used by CRK. CRK runs their steels softer than other companies making blades of comparable size/dimensions (i.e., folders), and while that may not have had too much of a detrimental effect with S30V, it sounds like it doesn't work very well for S35VN (which as others have mentioned, regardless of the industry hype about how it's an "improvement", is basically a neutered version of S30V).

I had a Seb in S30V that tested out at 57 HRC. The performance was dismal - it was outdone (in edge holding) EASILY by my CS Voyagers in AUS 8A. And not by a small amount, either. A $400 knife being absolutely smoked by a $30 knife. I was *really* disgusted, and got rid of it.

Yeah, forgot about the N5. Still, that is a very new release. My point was they did a good job with their first retail product. If the N5 maintains that level of performance, then the steel isn't exactly garbage, and it isn't exactly garbage at it's current state, which includes the Mule and the N5. A single piece in a single test does not mean Spyderco doesn't know how to HT the steel.

S30V is really great now in this thread, but several years back? Same story, people had problems.

Yeah, search on my name, and you'll get some examples... We've had this conversation before, haven't we?

 

[cziv]

What do you think of a maker using the S35VN in a much thicker bladed folder (than a Sebenza or Spydie) coming in at 60-61 HRC?

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

What do you think of a maker using the S35VN in a much thicker bladed folder (than a Sebenza or Spydie) coming in at 60-61 HRC?

I don't know if you're asking me or not, but I figured I'd chime in anyway.

That should be a good performer. The thicker blade stock alone would help negate a lot of the problems outline in this thread. The point or two higher hardness will just exacerbate the benefits from the thicker grind. I wouldn't worry at all about that. Seriously, if that were my knife I'd be just fine with it.

You got a good one.

 

[cziv]

I don't know if you're asking me or not, but I figured I'd chime in anyway.

That should be a good performer. The thicker blade stock alone would help negate a lot of the problems outline in this thread. The point or two higher hardness will just exacerbate the benefits from the thicker grind. I wouldn't worry at all about that. Seriously, if that were my knife I'd be just fine with it.

You got a good one.

Thanks John,

I've Googled the heck out the knife & steel we discussed and owners and users (probably not real "hard users") claim it's the bomb, cuts like a laser and other remarks like that. I guess you started this whole mess by blade slapping that Sebenza into the cutting board. Good grief man, what on earth were you thinking about?? :thumbup:

 

[me2]

Thicker blades won't stop the edge from rolling. The higher hardness might.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Thicker blades won't stop the edge from rolling. The higher hardness might.

Watch my cut test videos. We aren't talking about edge rolling, we are talking total edge warping. This isn't your run of the mill "rolling" like you are imagining.

Yes, thicker blade stock will help prevent the failure in my videos.

 

[jimnolimit]

S35VN is the answer to anyone who wanted more toughness or easier finishing. S30V is rather ubiquitous at the enthusiast price point, it is more a baseline than a standout performer for steel snobs. If it is easier to sharpen, easier to make pretty, and harder to chip, then it's a lot better for a much larger segment of the population. It isn't for the guys who wanted the next S110V. But we need to see how it performs overall compared to other alloys.

I've never used S30V and thought to myself "I wish this steel was 15%-20% tougher". In smaller blades, S30V does well enough and for larger blades there are better choices. Also, in my opinion, S30V is only a good knife steel when run in it's optimal hardness range (around 60HRC), If it's run below 59 it's just ok. I agree that we need more data before we come to a conclusion on S35VN, time and testing will tell.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I've never used S30V and thought to myself "I wish this steel was 15%-20% tougher". In smaller blades, S30V does well enough and for larger blades there are better choices. Also, in my opinion, S30V is only a good knife steel when run in it's optimal hardness range (around 60HRC), If it's run below 59 it's just ok. I agree that we need more data before we come to a conclusion on S35VN, time and testing will tell.

Kershaw is sending me a ZT 0550 to test. They are going to RC test it then send it my way with the results.

Should give another good data point.

 

[hardheart]

I've never used S30V and thought to myself "I wish this steel was 15%-20% tougher". In smaller blades, S30V does well enough and for larger blades there are better choices. Also, in my opinion, S30V is only a good knife steel when run in it's optimal hardness range (around 60HRC), If it's run below 59 it's just ok. I agree that we need more data before we come to a conclusion on S35VN, time and testing will tell.

I would imagine some people do. Depending on the hardness, Elmax and M390 only give you about 20% anyway. What is a good knife steel depends fully on the user. I have a custom in 15V, the relative wear resistance is like 7 times that of S30V, and only about 50-60% the toughness. Rex 121 and MPL-1 are even further out there, and I am waiting on orders. Maybe those are good steels, maybe not. A lot of people would definitely hate it. S30V, despite being vanilla to us, is a very highly wear resistant steel on very expensive knives to the majority of the world.

 

[Ankerson]

niobium is a very strong carbide former.

If the heat treat is off, then you can't yet call the steel 'garbage'. If the heat treat needs to be sorted, then blaming the alloy composition seems rather premature. Any steel is garbage at the wrong hardness. Spyderco seemed to do a good job on the Mules already, and they don't use it on anything else. Maybe wait until they or someone else decides to run it harder and plays with the heat treat protocol for several runs.

But at .50% it won't make much of a difference when they dropped a full point of Vanadium and dropped the Carbon content also down to 1.40% and kept the Chromium the same and are trying to say there won't be a difference in edge retention.

Or someone was saying it has better edge retention.....

Some people are smoking crack or something.

 

[singularity35]

I've never used S30V and thought to myself "I wish this steel was 15%-20% tougher". In smaller blades, S30V does well enough and for larger blades there are better choices. Also, in my opinion, S30V is only a good knife steel when run in it's optimal hardness range (around 60HRC), If it's run below 59 it's just ok. I agree that we need more data before we come to a conclusion on S35VN, time and testing will tell.

There's a manufacturer who says he will never use S30V because " a lot of average knife users find it hard to sharpen". Sharpening in the field seems pretty big with him and his crowd. I don't stay in the woods for long periods so sharpening S30V is not a problem for me.

 

[flatface77]

This must be the heat treat causing these results as others have said.
I dont see how s35vn with its alloy contents can be a worse edge holder than 420 and 8cr and the like.
I am pleased someone has pointed the problems out so hopefully this will get sorted.
Thanks for your tests CTS.

Check out his Youtube channel to see these steels in action. Good stuff.

 

[jimnolimit]

There's a manufacturer who says he will never use S30V because " a lot of average knife users find it hard to sharpen". Sharpening in the field seems pretty big with him and his crowd. I don't stay in the woods for long periods so sharpening S30V is not a problem for me.

I am not a fan of manufacturers who choose steels or hardness based on ease of shapening. if you have to use a rock to field sharpen, shame on the user. A $20-$25 coarse/fine pocket diamond Sharpener will put an edge on any steel. If someone is willing to spend a relatively large amount of money on a "high end" knife, why wouldn't they spend a few extra dollars on better sharpening equipment.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I am not a fan of manufacturers who choose steels or hardness based on ease of shapening. if you have to use a rock to field sharpen, shame on the user. A $20-$25 coarse/fine pocket diamond Sharpener will put an edge on any steel. If someone is willing to spend a relatively large amount of money on a "high end" knife, why wouldn't they spend a few extra dollars on better sharpening equipment.

My thoughts exactly. Is his customers are so high speed that they need a steel that's easily sharpened in the field, then you'd think they are familiar enough with their equipment to be able to hone a steel like S30V.

To me the whole "ease of field sharpening" thing is a joke. I don't know of any high end steel that would need a complete sharpening in the field. It seems to me like high end steels would be better for the field, since it only takes a few swipes on a ceramic to hone them back to a razors edge. That isn't sharpening, it's honing. S90V is just about as easy to hone as any other steel in my experience. That's why I don't understand that whole concept.

 

[singularity35]

I am not a fan of manufacturers who choose steels or hardness based on ease of shapening. if you have to use a rock to field sharpen, shame on the user. A $20-$25 coarse/fine pocket diamond Sharpener will put an edge on any steel. If someone is willing to spend a relatively large amount of money on a "high end" knife, why wouldn't they spend a few extra dollars on better sharpening equipment.

My thoughts exactly. Is his customers are so high speed that they need a steel that's easily sharpened in the field, then you'd think they are familiar enough with their equipment to be able to hone a steel like S30V.

To me the whole "ease of field sharpening" thing is a joke. I don't know of any high end steel that would need a complete sharpening in the field. It seems to me like high end steels would be better for the field, since it only takes a few swipes on a ceramic to hone them back to a razors edge. That isn't sharpening, it's honing. S90V is just about as easy to hone as any other steel in my experience. That's why I don't understand that whole concept.

I agree 100 percent. Smells a bit like BS.

 

[Ankerson]

My thoughts exactly. Is his customers are so high speed that they need a steel that's easily sharpened in the field, then you'd think they are familiar enough with their equipment to be able to hone a steel like S30V.

To me the whole "ease of field sharpening" thing is a joke. I don't know of any high end steel that would need a complete sharpening in the field. It seems to me like high end steels would be better for the field, since it only takes a few swipes on a ceramic to hone them back to a razors edge. That isn't sharpening, it's honing. S90V is just about as easy to hone as any other steel in my experience. That's why I don't understand that whole concept.

Sounds like BS because it is BS.

As you said a few swipes on a ceramic rod will touch up just about any steel in seconds including S90V.

 

[hardheart]

But at .50% it won't make much of a difference when they dropped a full point of Vanadium and dropped the Carbon content also down to 1.40% and kept the Chromium the same and are trying to say there won't be a difference in edge retention.

Or someone was saying it has better edge retention.....

Some people are smoking crack or something.

Well, they can't add much niobium and still be able to PM the steel or heat treat it similarly. The niobium stays locked up in carbides at austenizing temps and the carbides affect the melt to where it can't be atomized cleanly if the percentage is too high. Vanadium can strengthen the chromium carbide while the niobium forms its own carbides without bumping up the hardness of the chromium carbide. Great for limiting grain growth in the austenite and improving toughness, but can cause its own issues. A little goes a long way, just like 13% chromium is no big deal and where stainless starts, but 13% vanadium is ridiculous and very rarely encountered.

Also the ease of field sharpening thing comes from a romantic idea of having nothing but your knife and being able to do anything and then sharpen the dull blade with whatever you have available. Of course all the steels we are discussing are way too wear resistant for that to be fun or practical, even something like dull 8Cr13MoV would be a hassle on a river rock