3V:Why aren't more companies using it?

Thanks for joining the thread Ed! This has been fascinating, I can't wait to see what comes out of the shop!

I've enjoyed reading articles in Blade about your competition blades. Very interesting geometries on one that I remember, it's nice to see something unusual. I remember it being thin and curved. Very nice!
 
I spoke with Dan Farr at the Blade show last weekend. He's been using 1V for a while. Used it for his competition cutting model.

He offered to let us test his knives, but for our CATRA, I think we'd be more consistent to make a flat ground mule like our other test pieces.

Ed, if you get some before I do, I need a 2" 4" piece for a mule.

The carbon content seems low, but Dan seemed to feel there was enough there to make a good knife.

Considering the lower carbon content of the Japanese swords, I'll keep a drafty brain (open mind) until we do some testing.

sal
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It will be interesting to see what comes out of the competitions steel wise and specifically if any of the steels allow a thinner cross section at the edge or are the winners just dominated by the skill of the cutters and the blades all very similar in design. This is why it would be nice to see the blades submitted and cutting performed by a independent individual as well as cutters using stock blades so the people and the blades could be evaluated individually. As well blades could just be rotated and the scores totaled to as well prevent raw cutting skill from being used to massively hype a particular steel which is very likely to happen. They could also discuss methods of evaluation with someone like Kevin Cashen who is of a mind that you can evaluate a blade and remove the large influence of the weilder.

-Cliff

The evaluation of a blade, and not the wielder, can be tested, in rope cutting, by building a specialized machine. This would be the only scientifically accurate approach, I am sure that you would agree, Cliff. People get tired, the hand changes angles, muscular degeneration kicks in and alters ideal paths and follow through.

The machine would be sort of like a Ransom Rest for testing accuracy of firearms, and would need to be spring or hydraulically activated. The weight of cut, and angle would be completely adjustable to remove all variables out of the equation. I have some degree of experience in this field, as I worked with a principal involved in a sharpening machine that Spyderco owns. I think that anyone willing to cough up around $100,000 US dollars, give or take, would be able to procure said machine. Do you have any financial backers? Because I DO have access to people that could make a testing machine to spec.

Another problem not mentioned, is that manilla hemp rope is highly variable with regards to abrasiveness and consistency from batch to batch. Until a rope can be obtained that is made specifically for cutting, I am afraid that these variables could possibly skew test results.

Just my .02 US

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The machine would be sort of like a Ransom Rest for testing accuracy of firearms, and would need to be spring or hydraulically activated. The weight of cut, and angle would be completely adjustable to remove all variables out of the equation. I have some degree of experience in this field, as I worked with a principal involved in a sharpening machine that Spyderco owns. I think that anyone willing to cough up around $100,000 US dollars, give or take, would be able to procure said machine. Do you have any financial backers? Because I DO have access to people that could make a testing machine to spec.


As a customer I'd like to say thanks to Sal and the rest of the team for going to such lengths to make the knives so consistantly excellent. Learning of the proceedures involved in making the testinfg so consistant as to be able to test it in a scientifically repeatable manner.


Would it be ok If I quoted this quality control measure/labor in a different thread please. Author would be cited and quoted. Thanks. Joe L.
 
The machine that I am speaking about does not exist. I am encouraging Cliff to see if he can locate financial backing to have one made for testing competition rope cutting knives in a scientific manner.

The sharpening machine that Spyderco owns is proprietary, I am not even sure what they use it for. Maybe this is the machine that Sal uses for the "mules"?

Clarify what you want to quote me about, and if it makes sense, then you have my permission. Quote me out of context, and I will make sure that the Pirates keelhaul ya!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi STeve, we use a CATRA edge tester. Pretty consistent and reliable.

Made by CATRA in Sheffield, UK. The 100K is about right by the time you get it here and get trained.

Hey Jerry, yeah. can you shoot me a 2" x 4" piece. We can heat treat and grind here.

I might add that Dan Farr was forging his 1V. He said it was difficult because of the "hot melt" of 1V.

Ed, Scott said he would send you a piece of 1V. Are you gonna make a knife?

Hey Cliff, it's a "competition", not just a test. The "car" = knife steel, heat treat, geometry, etc. The "driver" = the cutter. + circuit and you have a competition. ;)

sal
 
Sal, I'll send you enough for both your standard test and a knife you can beat around to see how it fares.

Ed, if you'd like some of the 1V I have, shoot me an email. It is surface ground, ~3/16". I'd be interested in your results.
 
Kohai: Ah, of course....and your point of your post? You very well know that no one is going to cough up $100.000. And for $100.000 it should be rather easy to find a whole host of people who could make such a machine. I would know a few as well.

So, since no such machine exsist, there doesn't really seem to be any other way to "test" blades other than the way Cliff suggested. Even if the test is not stringent you should get a very good feel for it. Besides, a racecar is not tested by a machine that drives it around the track either. But if you take two cars and have them both be driven by all NASCAR drivers, the majority vote as to which is better, should be quite meaningful. Especially, if it should come to a unanimous vote. Quite frankly, I would be just fine with the opinion of a single accomplished competitor...who am I to tell a rope cutting champion which geometry is best for rope cutting? But that is just me.
 
HoB said:
Kohai: Ah, of course....and your point of your post? You very well know that no one is going to cough up $100.000. And for $100.000 it should be rather easy to find a whole host of people who could make such a machine. I would know a few as well.

So, since no such machine exsist, there doesn't really seem to be any other way to "test" blades other than the way Cliff suggested. Quite frankly, I would be just fine with the opinion of a single accomplished competitor...who am I to tell a rope cutting champion which geometry is best for rope cutting? But that is just me.

My point was that even an impartial person is not going to hit the mark every time. I do Japanese style cutting competitions. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, same with some MUCH more experienced and accomplished cutters than myself.

A machine is pretty much to only way to scientifically test the knives. Otherwise, it comes down to skill, technique, and luck. I don't know if you have done any competetive rope cutting, HoB, but I have, twice, in a group that included Ed Schempp, and he kicked butt with style. He has also taught his son Martin to cut, and Martin is a fine cutter in his own right. The competition is actually about 40% blade, and 60% wielder, IMHO, but Ed might pop up with a different percentage, and if he does, like you, I will accept what he has to say.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Well, but who wins isn't really the point now, is it? This is the same in any competition (hopefully) otherwise you could simply buy yourself a championship. No, I have never competed in a cutting competition. But in other sports events I have. In cycling the bike is less that 40% for sure, in running, the shoes are much less than 40%, in inline skating/ice skating, the boots are less than 40%. But still, any experienced athlete can tell immediately which setup works, and which doesn't....whether he wins that day or not. And even if you look at different athletes the setups are different of course, because not every setup works for every athlete, something that a machine will have a difficult time to access (A stronger man may prefer a slightly heavy blade, while a lighter person preferes a lighter, maybe, I don't know), but even with the variations among the preferences a general trend should emerge. You will never see someone competing in the tour de france on a mountain bike. Heck, they all even use time-trial bikes for that specific even and all time trial bikes have certain features in common. You never see a NASCAR race with a car toed the "wrong" direction, you will never see a marathon runner in a pair of Timberlands and a speed skater wouldn't wear figure skating boots. So by the same token, I would imagine that certain characteristics would also emerge for a cutting competion (in particular rope cutting) knife. And all that without a machine.

Of course the above comparisons are intentionally crude, in real competions the setups are very much alike. In speed skating they may argue about 0.5" ankle hight and about a few degrees by which the blade should be toed in. But for someone not competing at this level they all use essentially the same gear. So I would imagine in cutting competition that there will always be an argument, for example where exactly the balance point should be, aswell as about a few degrees and thousands of an inche of edge angle and edge thickness respectively, but again, I would imagine that a general trend should become quite clear.

As a matter of fact, the more I think about it the less I become convinced about the merit of a machine. As Sal said only if you take the both the competitor and the tool (knife, bike, car you name it) you have a competition. A machine will always lack that interface.
 
I've looked at quite a few of the knives that will be seen in the ICCT competitions. They have been made of many different steels. All these knives have had appropriate geometry for the steel as they had been tried and tested. All performed well. I think the margin for improvement amoung the competition knives in steel, sharpeness, and edge geometry is fairly small. I think we have a lot to learn and a large margin to improve in knife design; competitions will help this area evolve.

Jerry; thank you for the offer of steel, Scott is sending me some 3/16.

Steve, Wayne Goddard made his chop-o-matic out of materials in his back yard for maybe $20. The machine fixtured the blade; it was counter- balanced and the lever was dropped onto the edge of a two by four. The cuts were inspected and revealed alot about edge geometry and cutting wood. I saw the machine opperate; knives produced visable differences with the geometries tested...Ed
 
CPM-3V is not as simple as A2 with vanadium. Besides significant differences in chemistry, 3V is made by particle metallurgy. 3V is not stainless, though a properly passivated surface is similar to D2 in corrosion resistance. It definitely does not rust as easily as A2 or regular carbon steels.

A2 - 1.00%C, 5.25%Cr, 0.25%V, 1.10%Mo, 0.85%Mn
3V - 0.8% C, 7.5% Cr, 2.75% V, 1.3% Mo

According to Crucible's Charpy tests, 3V @ 60 HRC is tougher than L6 @ 57 HRC. 3V @ 58 HRC is more than twice as tough as A2 @ 60 HRC. Also by virtue of the CPM process, 3V probably contains around 0.11% nitrogen, much like S30V.
 
I would go so far as to say the particle metalurgy makes a bigger difference than often thought.

We don't normally get to CATRA test really similar chemistry with PM & non PM mfr. The opportunity to test CPM-154 was good for us.

CATRA testing of 154Cm and the powdered version showed the CPM version to have signifant improvement in abrasion resistance with relatively the same chemistry.

In the cas of a PM like ZDP-189, one could argue that the better performance was the result of "better" chemistry (3% carbon, 20% chrome). But in the case of the CPM-154 vs 154Cm, the difference in the process is is more obvious.

sal
 
SteelDriver,
I stand corrected,I oversimplified.Sorry for that mistake. :foot:
I recently acquired Bailey Bradshaw's personal Competition Cutter in CPM3V @ 60 HRC.
It was forged from a 1" X 3" billet,Bail said it barely moved under the press.

Doug:)
 
Sal,
I think you've noted an important but usually overlooked quality of CPM's 3V material - particle metalurgy. In some steel processing there can be a grain structure something like you might see in wood, where that exists the steels have a built in weekness. In the metal forming and stamping industries you see it often where hardened steels fracture and you can literally see the structure of the steel. We've made hot forge stamping dies from H13 (20,000 parts and under) and CPM 9V (70,000 parts plus), we've also made cold stamping/forming dies that in a particular application D2 made up to 70,000 parts where CPM 10V typically lasted over 250,000 parts. H13 & D2 are both very good steels (when they are processed correctly, we have seen foreign steels that weren't worth unbanding from the skid) but it the above mentioned instances particle metalurgy does make a signifigant difference, and I would say it is one of the benefits of CPM 3V for knives. For less of a backwoods particle metalurgy description see. http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/CPM/index.cfm

Jay Fehrman

John 14:6
 
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