40 or 9mm?

And lets not forget that in combat situations, full metal jacket round nose ball ammo is in use. Not JHP. It makes a world of difference in bullet/calibre effectiveness.

Semp
 
The .40 cal. can deliver a 180 gr. at 1250 fps.
You are pushing it with the S&W, but not with the 10 MM.
That was the original idea. to match the 1873 BP 38 -40 in a handgun.
The wimps loaded it down.
I have a 10 MM on a 1911 platform. I can get 1550 fps.out of it with no problem. The weapon is custom.
The wimps loaded that down.
If you are a limp wrist, don`t buy the gun.
And don`t whine.


Spectre said:
Actually, the .40 can deliver a 180 grain bullet at about 1,000 fps. This is very similar to the popular-for-years 185 grain .45 ACP at about the same velocity. The .40 180, when compared to the 185 .45, has higher sectional density, and can either hold more rounds per platform, or be fired from a 9mm-sized platform. (There is a similar SD when comparing 230-grain .45 to 180-grain .40.)

There is always a tradeoff, and in this case, it's pressure, leaving some who feel more recoil from .40 than from .45 ACP.

In short, the .40 is NOT a "tradeoff" when compared to the .45 ACP. It is only when comparing to the 10mm that such terms apply.

Sectional density of 0.161 with a bullet weight of 180 and diameter of .40".
Sectional density of 0.131 with a bullet weight of 185 and diameter of .45".
Sectional density of 0.162 with a bullet weight of 230 and diameter of .45".
Sectional density of 0.121 with a bullet weight of 135 and diameter of .40".


John, should be doing schoolwork
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Well, I have a stainless S&W 629 with an 8 inch barrell, but it is a bit big to carry, even though I do have a good shoulder holster.

I read about a woman who had been raped. She managed to stuff a 44 mag in her purse. Later she was attacked in a parking lot. She managed to get the hand cannon out and blow the bad guy to his "spiritual horizon" (love the phrase Specter).

When she went to court (count on this happening), the case against her was that she was acting out a Charles Bronson vigilante scenario. Setting the scene so she could kill somone. Actully the DA said "overkill" someone. No matter that she was about five feet tall and the bad guy was 'way over six feet.

She won, ultimately.

I think that I am OK with either 9mm (our military round) or a 40 (new police department round). I think that a double tap from either should slow the bad guy down enough for me to run away.

So besides the CCW, I also wear good running shoes......

BTW I had a talk with a good LEO friend he told me serveral things:

1. AVOID confrontation! If it mean backing down and not getting your testosterone involved, DO IT!

I studied karate many years ago. Tae Kwon Do. Brown belt. My instructor was amazing. Not only did he study karate, but also the Ninja. He seemed to be ale to defy both time and gravity with some awesome moves.

He told me that one night he was returning to his car when a guy stepped out of the dark, with a gun and demanded his wallet. He said he used all his Ninja training and handed the guy his wallet.

2. If confrontation is unavoidable. If you can not back down and run, or someone with you can not and you are both being menaced, shoot. Realize that even with a slug through the ticker the bad guy can still have as long as six seconds of play time left.

3. Once the bad guy is down, do not shoot him a few more times "just to be sure." Forensics will know and you will be in deeper trouble.

4. Call an ambulance. This will look better when you go to Court, and you ARE going to go to Court if the Police can connect you to the shooting.

5. Repeat this mantra to the Police: "I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE. I HAD NO WAY OF EXITING THE SITUATION."
 
That might sound spurious, but it's not.
The goal of the ninja is to survive, not to win.
If the guy had been better trained in ninjutsu, he MIGHT have sensed the bad guy in the dark and gone back to his office of wherever.
In any case, he would not have gone looking for trouble.
Just because someone offers you trouble doesnt mean you have to accept.
Dont think that, just because he has a gun and you gave him your wallet, that you dont have a measure of control over the situation.
Survival. Thats what the "nin" in ninjutsu or ninja means.
To survive.
 
DannyinJapan said:
That might sound spurious, but it's not.
The goal of the ninja is to survive, not to win.
If the guy had been better trained in ninjutsu, he MIGHT have sensed the bad guy in the dark and gone back to his office of wherever.
In any case, he would not have gone looking for trouble.
Just because someone offers you trouble doesnt mean you have to accept.
Dont think that, just because he has a gun and you gave him your wallet, that you dont have a measure of control over the situation.
Survival. Thats what the "nin" in ninjutsu or ninja means.
To survive.
Click to expand...

I thought that he was smart to give up his wallet. Did not have that much money in it anyhow.

Yeah, he "should have"/"could have" sensed the bad guy's presence and intentions, but sometimes your mind is elsewhere.

Survival is the key. You do what you must to survive.
 
Bill Marsh said:
. . .
2. If confrontation is unavoidable. If you can not back down and run, or someone with you can not and you are both being menaced, shoot.
. . .
3. Once the bad guy is down, do not shoot him a few more times "just to be sure." Forensics will know and you will be in deeper trouble.

4. Call an ambulance. This will look better when you go to Court, and you ARE going to go to Court if the Police can connect you to the shooting.
Click to expand...

No. 4 is an excellent operating assumption. You never know. We have had a number of fatal shootings in the past few years in this area that did not result in criminal charges -- including a wannabe robber with a shotgun who departed this mortal coil via a headshot a couple of days ago (wrong storekeeper!) -- or civil proceedings.
 
cliff355 said:
Indeed, according to the National Rifle Association, you will be going to Court for an average of 8.5 years regardless of how right you were.

Another piece of advice that frequently goes unsaid is: "Don't look like a crime victim." I've been avoiding trouble successfully for .5 centuries just by looking like the grumpy SOB that I am.
Click to expand...

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. The trouble with the NRA statistics is that they include clearly criminal shootings. Remember, even if one supports their stated objectives, they have other objectives (e.g., empire building) and use scare tactics just as much as the anti-gun folk.
 
Bill Marsh said:
5. Repeat this mantra to the Police: "I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIFE. I HAD NO WAY OF EXITING THE SITUATION."
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree with no. 5. The mantra should be the five magic words..."I have nothing to say." And then if pressed by the police say the four holy words..."I want a lawyer". Say nothing (and I mean NOTHING) else to the cops. Period. It is your right to remain silent. Excercise it.

Semp
 
Semper Fi said:
I respectfully disagree with no. 5. The mantra should be the five magic words..."I have nothing to say." And then if pressed by the police say the four holy words..."I want a lawyer". Say nothing (and I mean NOTHING) else to the cops. Period. It is your right to remain silent. Excercise it.

Semp
Click to expand...

I respectfully submit that following absolute rules may not produce the best result -- even on average.

Set the scene. The police arrive. You are standing there. There is a dead body on the floor in a pool of blood. Q: "What happened?" A: "I want a lawyer." How does it look? Are police human or are they computing machines? Have you met their expectations for an innocent man? Does it matter?

It might matter on a very practical level beyond the $$$ to hire the lawyer (Make that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Most of us do not get free legal services.)

The shopkeeper who just shot the would-be armed robber in this area told the police who responded what had happened. The physical evidence was consistent with the shopkeeper's voluntary, uncoached story. The Prosecutor has decreed that no charges will be filed.

If the shopkeeper refused to give any information on the scene, the police would have a body (neither with a criminal record) and two weapons and no other information. The shopkeeper would have "looked guilty." Absent an explaination, the police in Ohio would probably be justified in making a search of at least the immediate area without a warrant. They would almost certainly take you into custody and place you in jail. A judge would probably issue a warrent to search the entire premises. The presecutor might tip to a decision to prosecute because the shopkeeper refused to explain ambiguous circumstances until after "The lawyer told him what to say."

I know that argument: "You're not an expert. Best to keep mouth shut. You have a right to remain silent." Following that advice instantly turns the situation into an adversarial one, which is seldom in your best interests even if all turns out well in the end. Cops do not identify with mops. They do not typically expect that you will see them as the "enemy."

It may be better to SIMPLY say, "He came at me with a knife. I couldn't get away so I shot at him." (Our top criminal lawyer [He hates that title. :p ] aways has his client say they "shot at" the person who was shot. Of course, the prosecutors and police know that fact, so the words have no weight after the lawyer is consulted.)

(I was a court-appointed guardian for a juvenile shooter. His court-appointed lawyer's first words [Other than, "What happened?] were, "Why didn't you tell the cops?" The juvenile was eventually released after thirty-seven days in custody. He [5'2"] shot in self-defense with a .22 rifle after his drunken dad [6'4" 260 lbs.] knocked mom out with the rifle butt [fractured skull and broken jaw] and tried to to brain him with a wooden chair. He then refused to say anything to the cops. He told me that he learned that conduct from "watchin' TV." Without his explaination, it seemed that he brained Mom [She didn't regain consciousness for two weeks or so.] and then shot dad who was trying to stop him. Even when Mom told her story, the police doubted her ["Trying to save her baby."] because the kid [That's right!] didn't tell his story until "after the lawyer told him what to say.")

(Situations alter cases. If you have "been in the system" or it is understood that the police are " an occupying army," silence is not unexpected - and they already suspect you did wrong. After all, you did wrong before -- or probably did. YOU are guilty until proven innocent.)
 
Good post.

I think the best advice I've read on the matter was along the lines of, "I was in fear for my life. I'm pretty shaken up right now, but I'll be happy to give a full statement after I've calmed down a little."
 
cliff355 said:
Thomas Linton said:
The trouble with the NRA statistics is that they include clearly criminal shootings. QUOTE]

Thomas, that may be but criminal matters typically don't run up the clock. Much of this discussion seems oriented toward getting past a Grand Jury, and if the situation is righteous the shooter will probably get past one regardless of what is said.

A finding of "no bill" will not necessarily end the matter and I think that is what the NRA is driving at. Avoiding criminal charges simply drops the standard from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "a preponderance of the evidence."
Click to expand...


OK. Got it. "Going to court." There's a lawyer willing to take almost any civil case regardless of the merits.

Some venues are far worse than the average.

Civil cases in Ohio are disposed of, on average, in less than two years. That's because 95% of them are disposed of other than by trial. Few go to trial longer than four years after the event unless the plaintiff is a minor.

Typically no insurance coverage for a deliberate shooting, however justified. All your $$$.

Good reasons not to shoot unless you have to. If you truly (judged at the time) have to, you have to -- regardless of the consequences. Better tried by twelve (six or eight) etc.
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All of this goes towards never handling a firearm during a crisis unless someone's life is in danger.
The media likes to think guns are pointed in all directions, but the truth is that the vast majority of good people never have occasion to point, and in that rare moment, do so for the best reasons. Gary Kleck's work strongly suggests the appearence of a firearm deters a crime about to occure and subsequently does not happen. (lots of extra babble in that sentence, gee whizz)


munk
 
Here's a testimonial.

Years ago, I was driving back from dinner at a friend's. I took a "shortcut" through a "bad" neighborhood. At a stop light, a man approached pointing at my left rear tire and saying, "Mister, yoo gotta flat." He pointied with his left. His right was behind his right hip. I placed a Webley Mk. IV .455 on the dash of my Plymouth. He departed with haste.

The Mk. IV (Think of a revolver the size of S&W 1917 - but uglier.) was with me for repairs. It belonged to my friend. It was unloaded.

When I reported the incident to the police, it turned out there had been a rash of folks getting their car windows smashed with a tire iron (or something similar) when stopped for lights in that area. Some victims were "only" robbed. Others got hit and injured. Some floored it and got away clean.

Two weeks later, this little dance was tried on a cabbie with a loaded .38. That was the last dance for the criminal in question.
 
There was a quiet kid in my grade who, a couple years ago, was arrested for shooting his step-dad in the head. It was certainly self defense against an abusive SOB, but he did not call the cops and decided to hide the guy's body in the woods. Bad call. He's still awaiting his court date. He spent a long time in jail awaiting his hearing, etc. It all could have been prevented if he had come clean and told the cops what happened.

Chris
 
I have to agree with Thomas Linton's comments regarding what to say to the Police after you have been involved in a shooting. (Of course blending into the crowd and disappearing might be a viable alternative in certain situations.) If you say nothing, then the Police will have to rely on other witnesses and the suspect, if he's still alive. Assuming that you didn't just up and murder someone, you need to give the Police something to go on. Give them a brief explanation and point out where you were, where the bad guy was, etc. They are much more likely to come up with the correct conclusions if you point them in the right direction. I would not commit anything to writing until I had met with an experience attorney who has handled this kind of matter. He will help you write your statement, which will then be provided to the Police. Be damn sure to hire the right attorney, not a real estate attorney, and not the guy who did your will!

I have discussed this situation in training and in private with an excellent attorney who represents Police Officers in Officer involved shootings. He knows his stuff. I carry his business card in my uniform pocket, just in case. The information I provided at the beginning sums up very briefly the course of action suggested by this attorney.

For those of you who don't know, most witnesses do not see what they think they see. Even when they are on your side, they usually get things wrong. A case in point; We had a guy kidnap his wife at gun point in Massachusetts and drive into my town. They stop to get gas. She convinces him to let her use the bathroom. She of course calls the Police. My buddy and several other cops respond. My buddy arrives first and finds the husband out of the car filling the tank. He draws down on him (with a pistol) and orders the guy to put his hands up. Ignoring the cop, the bad guy gets into his car, reaches across the seat and picks up his gun. My buddy moves around to the open car door to line up a shot, telling the guy to drop his gun. He does not comply. My friend is just beginning to squeeze the trigger when the bad guy does the right thing and blows his own brains out. A pro-Police witness gives a statement saying that when the bad guy didn't put his gun down the Officer had no choice but to shoot the guy with his shotgun. She honestly believed that she saw my buddy shoot the bad guy with a shotgun. No one at the scene had a shotgun, and the bad guy was the only one to shoot. Imagine what the story might have been if the witness had a chip on her shoulder against the Police?! Why, it might have looked like what you read in your local newspaper...:eek:
 
Thomas Linton said:
I respectfully submit that following absolute rules may not produce the best result -- even on average.

Set the scene. The police arrive. You are standing there. There is a dead body on the floor in a pool of blood. Q: "What happened?" A: "I want a lawyer." How does it look? Are police human or are they computing machines? Have you met their expectations for an innocent man? Does it matter?
Click to expand...

I don't care what the cops expectations are. Their job is to make arrests. The prosecutors job is to put people behind bars. Those are the cold hard facts.

Another cold hard fact. Most people get themselves into trouble with the law though their mouths. They try to talk their way out of a situation with the cops by "explaining" what happened or they tell their "best" friend what they did or didn't do who in turn tells their best friend ad nauseum and eventually the police find out.

Every attorney I know will advise that you must keep your mouth shut if you even remotely suspect you may be the target of a criminal complaint. Certainly the act of shooting someone qualifies in that regard.

Semp
 
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