420HC - Thoughts?

I recently got a Schatt Mini Muskrat made this year in that steel.

What I can't understand is why I cannot get any edge at all on it?? It arrived blunt and it's stayed that way, I've NEVER had any difficulty in sharpening Buck, CASE or Victorinox stainless knives. I've noticed it has some strange reddish colour to the metal in the tang stamps, this red does not come off with cleaning. Odd.
 
I'm a pretty big fan of what are considered to be low end steels around here, including 420HC. Why? Ease of maintaining good edges. Super steels are nice selling points. But I've found many of their advantages are often academic and probably more noticeable with machines than human users. Regular old me likes it because it's trivial to get razor sharp edges and maintain them, mirror smooth or toothy, with ease.

So, no, I am not biased against it, nor have I ever been.

I have had almost universally good experiences with it. Better than some super steels.

It generally doesn't affect my buying preferences. There are a few exceptions where I bought a knife to try out a specific steel. But there's no way I'd shun a knife because it was only offered in 420HC. I think I'd generally look on that as a plus.
 
okbohn said:
yeah, I wouldn't choose it for one of our knives (though there have been plenty made) just because I think it has a bit of a bad rep in knives.

You guys have pretty well echoed what I suspected. :) Thanks!
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Derrick...

An additional thought... Different knives appeal to different markets and different markets will have different perceptions. I would hazard a guess that your Northwoods traditionals would be well received if they use 420HC (provided you get really good heat treat) because I think most buyers of traditional knives a) have positive feelings towards basic carbon and b) accept that steels like 420HC, 440A and 12C27 can all be good options.

Now, on the other hand, if you are looking to carve out a niche in production level traditional slip joints with more advanced modern steels... that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

My comments about the "spec appeal" of 420HC probably have more bearing on the modern flipper and fixed blade markets. Just my hunch.
 
Probably a little biased because as I came of knife-snobbery age there were a lot of better alternatives available. When I see 420 steel I always think "Wish they'd of ponied up for at least 440C". I am slowly getting over my knife-snobbery and have come to accept it. Done by Buck I am fine with it. Also depends on the cost of the knife too. At the typical Buck price range it's good. When I see a knife close to, or higher, than $100 in 420HC I am put off by it.
 
I could live with 420HC just fine if I had to, although there are steels that hold a better edge these days. It's tough, highly corrosion resistant, easy to sharpen to a very fine edge, and affordable compared to higher end steels. Millions of people use 420HC daily and it suits them just fine, even if they're unaware of higher end steels. You can field dress several deer with a 110 in 420HC without resharpening (if you're careful, that is), which is pretty good in most people's books.
 
willgoy said:
I recently got a Schatt Mini Muskrat made this year in that steel.

What I can't understand is why I cannot get any edge at all on it?? It arrived blunt and it's stayed that way, I've NEVER had any difficulty in sharpening Buck, CASE or Victorinox stainless knives. I've noticed it has some strange reddish colour to the metal in the tang stamps, this red does not come off with cleaning. Odd.
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Willgoy, what you might have is one done up in D2. If in fact it is, you will need a diamond sharpener of some kind otherwise you will be there for days trying to get it butter knife sharp. Hope that helps.
 
willgoy said:
I recently got a Schatt Mini Muskrat made this year in that steel.

What I can't understand is why I cannot get any edge at all on it?? It arrived blunt and it's stayed that way, I've NEVER had any difficulty in sharpening Buck, CASE or Victorinox stainless knives. I've noticed it has some strange reddish colour to the metal in the tang stamps, this red does not come off with cleaning. Odd.
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Assuming the Muskrat is a narrow 'California Clip' blade (x2), I've never liked these. Blade geometry on these is the biggest drawback, with a combination of narrow spine-to-edge width and relatively thickish grind that obviously thickens much quicker above the edge, when the edge is already close to the spine (more so near the tip). I've yet to find one of these narrow California Clips that was able to take as fine-slicing an edge as other grinds, even in a 'simple' steel like 1095. Only definitive way to improve upon it, is to thin the overall grind almost all the way to the spine.

May or may not be other issues with the heat treat, but the blade grind itself is already a handicap, on most Muskrats I've seen. More so on the smaller versions, because the blade is so narrow, relative to it's thickness; taper from spine to edge is more abrupt, so the cutting geometry is much more limited.


David
 
Thanks Rob, that thought crossed my mind but I can't really believe the factory would mix up the steels 420 and D2 because the latter would be a major selling point/attraction surely? The red colour in the tang stamps is very strange, could it be evidence of heat treatment or blanking gone wrong???
 
David, that makes a lot of sense. It is a small pair of narrow blades in this frame and they are California Clip.

Looks like this is essentially a display knife then, sigh! My Queen 4" Muskrat in D2 is enormously sharp however!

Thanks for you input, Will
 
420HC is plenty serviceable for me and I don't mind it or similar steels if the type or brand of knife is only available in that type of stainless. I do find it strange that many S&M knives have this steel when the Queen brand has the far superior D2 for a comparable or sometimes cheaper price.
 
willgoy said:
Thanks Rob, that thought crossed my mind but I can't really believe the factory would mix up the steels 420 and D2 because the latter would be a major selling point/attraction surely? The red colour in the tang stamps is very strange, could it be evidence of heat treatment or blanking gone wrong???
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Wonder if it may've been some rust/corrosion from the stamping tools themselves, driven into or embedded in the tang during stamping(?). Just pure speculation, but it's the only thing that comes to mind. Would be interesting to see a pic of that. Were it my own knife to tinker with, I might mix up some Bar Keepers Friend powder and water, to a paste, and scrub it into the stamps w/a toothbrush. If the red coloration is rust, the BKF will dissolve it and clean it up fast (< 30-60 seconds; then rinsed off thoroughly).


David
 
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Like many Americans of my age, I've used a Buck 119 with 420HC as a hunting knife to field dress deer for decades. By the time I am done, it is pretty dull, but can be easily sharpened in the field. I do often cut through joints, and that is where the blade really dulls quickly. It sharpens up nicely though, and is ready for more.
 
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While I don't mind 420HC in a $30 - $40 knife, I feel short-changed if it's used on a $100 piece of cutlery. The 420HC in this $61 knife was offset by the buffalo horn covers, the MOP keystone shield and the above average execution of a favorite pattern. It's only offered here to show that my steel-snobbery can be overcome, on occasion.
 
It's perfectly acceptable if it is properly treated. My guess is that 75% of the steel snobs and self proclaimed gurus of steel are the same guys whose knives see little or no use.
 
Personally I quite like it, serves my everyday purposes well. Cheap, good stain resistance, holds a decent edge and sharpens up nicely.
 
okbohn said:
yeah, I wouldn't choose it for one of our knives (though there have been plenty made) just because I think it has a bit of a bad rep in knives.

You guys have pretty well echoed what I suspected. :) Thanks!
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There are enough folks who see 420HC as a cheap, low end alloy that I agree with your choice.

However, when hardened to the high 50's as Buck does, it works just fine for most purposes. Even when hardened to the mid-50's as Case does, it still works well if you sharpen it for that hardness.
 
I picked up a buck northshore a few years ago and it uses 420hc I really like it ,as others have said super easy to sharpen and touch-up ,holds okay edge,good corrosion resist-buck has done real well with it,I guess thats why they keep using it.
 
Well, you folks might think I would come to this party waving a 420 Bos flag. Sorry, I don't wave hardly anything anymore...

I started out a Buck pocketknife person in the late 70's. I was young enough to be dumb and didn't even realize I was carrying a Camillus made Buck knife with 440a blades, you just knew it had to be the same stuff as a 110 had.... Later as I got older and smarter, smarter - not yet smart, I developed into a collector of the models and my education here and other places gave me dangerous knowledge. But, you know I got over being what someone called a blade snob and actually mostly carried some extra knives of the collection. For some reason(s) I seemed to prefer the few years models Buck used 425m, and those couple of years were early Bos years. I also carried old Buck contract stockmen from Schrade. Now they were sexy looking 440a but could not take really hard abuse with the swinden pins. So what would I say to you if you were questioning Bucks 420hc, I would say a lot of people say its OK to use and not too hard to resharpen..
Most of the time now I seem to end up carry something with pinnah's 12C27. I too am a stropper before stone. And that's my Buck 300 collector truth.....300Bucks
 
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No real bad experience, there are just so many better options out there I don't understand why it is used at all except in entry level knives.
 
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