420HC - Thoughts?

I got only one, Condor Hivernant. Fun little knife, very strong, ideal for camping, takes all abuse without a shrug. I took it to razor sharp with minimal work (I mean it actually shaved a patch of forearm without any tugging...). It stays reasonably sharp like Böker's 440C (not impressed) or Cold Steel's Krupp 4116 (very pleasantly surprised I was). So, I'd say 420 HC (at least, by Condor), is something to consider if you look for usable (reasonably stainless and sharp) value.
 
It is worth mentioning that "back in the day" 420 was considered a high speed, high tech steel.

I'm sure far into the future, after the next uber compound is found, there will be people saying "....I don't know why people ever used such primitive materials as iron and carbon....."

It does what is needed for the vast majority of users. If someone is concerned about the steel for real or imagined reasons, plenty of others are out there.
 
What's not to like about it? It takes a great edge, stays sharp, looks great, and doesn't rust. I love me a Buck knife with 420HC but I also like to mix it up now by throwing in a s30v if I get a custom. Nothing but good from my side and I use all of my knives and hate looking at things collect dust in a drawer.
 
The nice thing about (so called) cheap steel is that you can get yourself a knife for little dollars and put it through its paces. And that's informative... And that's why many people love old carbon steel like 1095, 1075 or even 1055 and trusted stainless like 440C, 420HC or 12C27 (which has been around for so long that I may perhaps group it with the oldees and trustees...).
 
Imo buck has the best 420hc Paul bos heat treats it to 56-59 Rockwell hardness. Now it doesn't hold a edge as well as the old buck 440c. But there again what your going to be using it for and edge geometry have huge rolls. My buck 110 has a 25 degree edge on it. For 420hC for me and the 25 degree edge are a good balance, it takes a razor edge.
 
420 HC is the steel used on leatherman knives. At least on the supertool 300 I frequently use. I have never sharpened the knife because of its recurve blade. While I haven't used it extensively, it still has seen a good amount of use and with 0 sharpening it holds an acceptable edge. Overall a good low end stainless.
 
There is no such thing as a "low end stainless".
There are only alloys with different sets of properties.
 
knarfeng said:
There is no such thing as a "low end stainless".
There are only alloys with different sets of properties.
Click to expand...
Well if you put it in your perspective that's true. In comparison to more modern alloys, I still label it as a low end/simple stainless steel. Many other alloys exhibit--different yes, but often a better set of properties. By your definition you are simply saying that there are trade offs since no low end stainless exists. If there were to be a trade off with 420HC in comparison to more modern steels like s30v or m390 I guess the only benefit would be ease of sharpening. Though not an issue for me since I have good quality waterstones that cut most anything.
 
The m4 m390 steels of that nature are us less to me, what r u gonna do if u find yourself in a serious survival situation with a dull blade of that type? Unless it carrying a stone, ur gonna have a dull knife. I can sharpen anything and make it scary sharp, but that stuff u can't just find anything to cut that steel.
 
knarfeng said:
There is no such thing as a "low end stainless".
There are only alloys with different sets of properties.
Click to expand...

I agree here. I'm definitely a steel snob, but it seems to be anymore if it's don't cost 100$ and up, its "low end" I have a camillus carnivore I purchased 2 years ago and have seriously used this knife hard. $27 bucks. And I also have doizer d2 knives that were $245+ that have chipped very lil. There good knives but my point is I'd rather have a so called " low end" steel to be easier to field sharpen and be tougher that will hold up if my life depends on it rather than a pretty boy knife imo.
 
As a teenager getting into knives I quickly became a steel snob. The metallurgy and cutting edge (pun!) of steel tech excited me.

I also quickly got into free hand sharpening on Japanese water stones and sharpening and trying super steels was very enjoyable to me.

It only took a couple years to move towards traditionals. Sometime in between I got into functional fixed blades, specifically for bushcraft and that got me excited about carbon steels.

Now I'm almost exclusively into traditionals for the last 5 years or so. I can't remember the last time I carried a modern and my collection has been whittle down to a treasured few moderns.

All that said, I can't help but carry over some steel snobbery to the traditional game. But interestingly, it's carbons I'm stuck on.

Like someone said in another thread: Carbon patinas, stainless just scratches.

Long story short, I don't dig 420HC. I will always prefer carbon in a slipjoint and if it just has to be stainless, I'd prefer something impressive like s30v and up.
 
You folks are missing my point.
The term "Low end stainless" has no technical meaning.

Steel is steel. It isn't "high end". It isn't, "low end". It's just steel with a specific set of properties, some of which come from composition and some from how it is heat treated.

You can describe 420HC as, "carbide-free stainless steel".
You can describe 420HC as, "melt alloy stainless steel".
You can describe 420HC as, "medium carbon stainless steel".

As I said, the term "Low end stainless" is has no technical meaning.

"Traditional" or not, this forum talks about cutlery and a certain appreciation for proper terminology should come with the territory.
 
knarfeng said:
You folks are missing my point.
The term "Low end stainless" has no technical meaning.

Steel is steel. It isn't "high end". It isn't, "low end". It's just steel with a specific set of properties, some of which come from composition and some from how it is heat treated.

You can describe 420HC as, "carbide-free stainless steel".
You can describe 420HC as, "melt alloy stainless steel".
You can describe 420HC as, "medium carbon stainless steel".

As I said, the term "Low end stainless" is has no technical meaning.

"Traditional" or not, this forum talks about cutlery and a certain appreciation for proper terminology should come with the territory.
Click to expand...

Knarfeng, I completely agree with u. There are 200$ benchmades with a us 8 steel. That's freeking stupid but whatever. I like your technical aspect on things.
 
To me there's really only two kinds of steel: high carbon and stainless. Within those two categories there's steel that's too soft, good, and too hard. I really don't care what a steel looks like under a microscope or how easy or hard it is to work with. I don't care how expensive a steel is to make a knife out of. I only care about how it works as a blade and whether or not it's going to form a patina. I want a blade that I can sharpen, but will retain an edge for a decent amount of time. I want to be able to apply some lateral force without worrying that it's going to snap or chip, I don't pry with my knives but if I'm struggling to cut through something and I have to wiggle it a bit I don't want to have to worry about damage to the blade. I've been staying away from stainless because I've found that I prefer a patina on my blades. It looks nice to me. The shinier a blade is the less I like it.

So far, I've found that GEC and Schrade blades fit my needs the best. For the few stainless I own, my Buck does the best job.

I don't really understand why people care about the materials that their knives are made of. For the knifemakers and modders it makes sense. For the user not so much. I could take the superest of super steels and make a knife that's complete garbage out of it, and you read all the time here about such and such company making good blades out of very cheap steel. Since this is already known, why do people keep trying to use the type of steel a blade is made out of as a gauge for the quality of a knife or how much a knife should cost? Figure out if you want carbon or stainless and what hardness you prefer and find a maker that can fill those needs. Who cares what materials they use to do their job?
 
Low end stainless means three things to me: 1) Inexpensive-less than $1.00/lb., 2) Lacking in expensive additives which enhance the wear resistance and edge holding such as Molybdenum, Manganese, Chrome, Carbon, Tungsten, Vanadium, Niobium, etc., and 3) Lacking a sophisticated smelting process, such as powdered metallurgy, which gets rid of impurities, reduces grain size, and yields a very uniform distribution of multiple carbides.
Some of the Stellites cost more than $300/lb., and I think they are worth more. CPM S-90-V and CPM S-110-V cost in the neighborhood of $50/lb. I think they are worth more than that IMHO.
Give me a blade that can't be fine blanked, that eats up belts, that blade makers curse, that is hard to sharpen. To me they are worth the expense and the trouble.
 
tiguy7 said:
Low end stainless means three things to me: 1) Inexpensive-less than $1.00/lb., 2) Lacking in expensive additives which enhance the wear resistance and edge holding such as Molybdenum, Manganese, Chrome, Carbon, Tungsten, Vanadium, Niobium, etc., and 3) Lacking a sophisticated smelting process, such as powdered metallurgy, which gets rid of impurities, reduces grain size, and yields a very uniform distribution of multiple carbides.
Some of the Stellites cost more than $300/lb., and I think they are worth more. CPM S-90-V and CPM S-110-V cost in the neighborhood of $50/lb. I think they are worth more than that IMHO.
Give me a blade that can't be fine blanked, that eats up belts, that blade makers curse, that is hard to sharpen. To me they are worth the expense and the trouble.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt you will find any stellite blades in a stockman configuration.

The question was whether you'd be willing to pay for the fit and finish of a fine traditional pocket knife with a blade of 420HC.
 
knarfeng said:
You folks are missing my point.
The term "Low end stainless" has no technical meaning.

Steel is steel. It isn't "high end". It isn't, "low end". It's just steel with a specific set of properties, some of which come from composition and some from how it is heat treated.

You can describe 420HC as, "carbide-free stainless steel".
You can describe 420HC as, "melt alloy stainless steel".
You can describe 420HC as, "medium carbon stainless steel".

As I said, the term "Low end stainless" is has no technical meaning.

"Traditional" or not, this forum talks about cutlery and a certain appreciation for proper terminology should come with the territory.
Click to expand...

Having spent most of my career in engineering, I see this point as being true.

jobasha11 said:
Yeah it does. If people accept the term and understand its meaning, then it has meaning.
Click to expand...


Having spent a portion of my career in marketing [1], I see this point as being even more true.

For a period of time, the term "mid fat shaped ski" or "freeride ski" meant something. These marketing terms come and go and float for a period of time like wads of foam that is the bubbling churn of magazine, retailer catalog, e-commerce, internet forum fodder. Heck, the term "traditional knife" has no technical meaning, until we add technical qualifiers here, on this particular forum in a particular way.

I describe 420HC, 440A, Aus 6, Aus 8 and 12C27 as "mid grade stainless steels". I think this is fair, accurate and mostly well understood. The term concedes that there are higher grades of stainless (which I disagree with as an engineer, but accept as a marketing reality) and it reinforces that there are low grade forms of stainless, that are not really suitable for use (I would put 420J2 in that bucket).

[1] - Interestingly, it only hurts for a second when they remove your soul.
 
I tend to think in grades of performance; lower "grade" of steels equals lower performance. Also, I think that material quality should be commensurate with the price. I expect better materials as the price scales up. You usually get what you pay for, and I would be very disappointed to buy an expensive knife and find that it was 420 HC. And won't expect 30V or the like in a cheapo.
 
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