440A performance...

[Planterz]

I agree but not to low hardness and edge retention.

The hardness you get is still 59-60 if you do you job right (see above), i doubt that anny of the factorys named, has done a heattreatment that can offer this hardness.

Name me one manufacturer that hardens 440A to 59-60Rc.

 

[W.T. Beck]

if schrade plus steel is 440a how did their knives become so popular?

I suspect those of us who know the difference between 440A and S30V are a very tiny minority of knife buyers, or even knife sellers. What is popular is what is offered at reasonable prices in Walmart. It has nothing to do with the type of the steel. The average person simply does not know one steel from another, and therefore does not seek out knives made from the better steels.

 

[Roman Landes]

Name me one manufacturer that hardens 440A to 59-60Rc

Me.

And if you stick exactly to the HT I offered before, you can do it yourself.

For the manufactures it simply doesnt make too much sense as I explained before.

 

[Blop]

Me.

And if you stick exactly to the HT I offered before, you can do it yourself.

For the manufactures it simply doesnt make too much sense as I explained before.

440A is comparible to 1.4110. Compared to 4034 it has a bit more carbon and an addition of molybdenium. Would this affect your recommendations?

You weren´t the only one to do so. A german or austrian knifemaker made a large chopper out of 1.4034 and as we know the customer (professional hunter) is happy with it.

So, if i had the chance for custom made, i would go that ht way.

BTW a simple 440A blade from Gerber performed in harder things aswell as other high end steels. If the overall knife is great and hardness is around 57 for a production, why not buying it?

Remember that early S60V came with 57HRC and were hyped. I would choose a steel with more overall qualities.

 

[Mr.BadExample]

I'm usually a steel snob, but I've had no problems with my 440A Nextgen Kabar. It has its original edge, holds up to chopping without damage. It'll probably be a pain to sharpen when it finally needs it.

 

[Roman Landes]

440A is comparible to 1.4110. Compared to 4034 it has a bit more carbon and an addition of molybdenium. Would this affect your recommendations?

Just Do the same with it works fine.

You weren´t the only one to do so. A german or austrian knifemaker made a large chopper out of 1.4034 and as we know the customer (professional hunter) is happy with it.

of course I am not the only one,

Now the thread is here
http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=21167&highlight=standhauer

and going back where he is referring to is here

http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=11061
see Thread Nr. 15
You find something?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I agree but not to low hardness ...

It is left soft in the production blades, as far as I know no custom makers use it harder, even 440C is usually ~ 58 HRC. So 440A used in knives has a drawback of lower hardness and thus edge retention due to more rolling. It is tougher thougher, impact wise as well as ductility.

...440C/ D2 you name it, blades than steels like 440C win, because his moderate sharp and rough edge

There is no rough edge effect with those steels, you can easily get even D2 to a finish where it shaves hair above the skin. Edge stability isn't really a factor either in regards to most cutting outside of impacts like chopping.

I have a D2 blade ground at ~5 degrees per side which I used to cut 2000+ pieces of 3/8" hemp rope. It was still very sharp at the end of the cutting, and retained the ability to slice paper for a *long* time during the cutting.

-Cliff

 

[Roman Landes]

Ya Cliff, I know they don do it, but the steel offer this potential, and the edge ist fine, tough and stable with this HT, just try.

Of course you get D2 and allikes hairpopping sharp but not for long, and it is all about the stability in the edge.
Did you have a look in the model of the edge paper, as soon as you put a force on the thin and fine edge, the hughe carbides will chip and leave microserrations you can even see with the bare eye.
Whats left is a more or less rocky looking edge thats good for a average slice cut, and thats one also feels when touching it, it feels very agressive (micro teeth)
As long as you are able to hold your knife exactly centrered it somehow is ok. But thats nearly impossible in normal use.

Every litttle pice of side deflection will end up in a chip of the edge because these steels are so brittle.
You can nicely see it in the microscope.
http://www.schmiedecafe.com/forum/images/artikel/werkstofftechnik/werkstofftechnik_bild_3.jpg
here the example with 440C compared to 12c27.

And as you see out of the model of the cuttingedge D2 and 440C aint that far from each other.

RGDS Roman

 

[STR]

I have never understood why 440A would be used when the superior 440C is just as readily available and just as easily worked.

I do alot of carving in woods and even when I'm out just messing around at my cabin or some other woods in my area I often pick up a stick to whittle. Naturally I use this as my 'test' for edge keeping since I do it alot. I had a Kershaw Black Out that I really liked. Great knife and fun to flick open and show off. Loved the black finish. I thought it was a great knife for a 440A blade but after about 7 to 10 minutes of carving on just any old wood it pretty much lost all the bite it had in it. It would become difficult to make it cut and the more I used it the harder I had to push. Oh sure, it sharpened back up to a bite easy enough but it never lasted any longer even after reprofiling the edge slightly.

Not to beat a dead horse but when you have to push that hard on a knife to make it cut, it becomes more dangerous to use. Sharper is better as the old saying goes because it requires less force to make it work and therefore you have more control.

If you sharpen an occassional pencil, or open packages or cut a box down now and then I'm sure 440A is fine. So is AUS6 or 420 for that matter.

I have a few knives I routinely carry that I like because they cut and cut and cut without needing attention that often. One of my favorites is the D2 Dozier Thorn by Kabar with the spear point blade. I can literally whittle on hickory all day long with that blade till I'm ankle deep in shavings and it still cuts well. Some of my 440C Gerbers and the Bill Vining custom I have in 440C blades don't quite keep up with that D2 but they sure do last a long time on even hickory or oak compared to any of the 440A or AUS6 blades I own so to me it is an open and shut case. The only way I can be happy with a knife with 440A or lesser steel is to also carry my sharpener along with me for the frequent touch ups needed to keep the bite.

I just don't notice edge rolling on these better steels like I do on the lower grade ones. For what I do with the knives I carry the low grades just don't cut it. (Pun intended)

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Every litttle pice of side deflection will end up in a chip of the edge because these steels are so brittle.

This really isn't a concern for most materials. I have knives at 65/66 HRC which are extremely brittle, they cut woods, carboard, ropes, foods, etc. all day long. The forces are just too small to fracture anything.

There are issues with twisting and impacting the heavier carbide steels of course so I would not recommend hammering on S30V or D2 blades, and they are more likely to fracture upon impact such as when I recently smacked a D2 bowie into a rock while clearing some brush.

I am not saying the carbides are not there, but I have not seen the edge tear out reducing sharpness quickly with visible chips. Lots of makers use those steels at high polishes for push cutting like Hossom and generally get high praise.

Hossom actually argues that S30V works better at a high polish and the edge degrades fast if you leave it with a rough finish, which is true for the work he does which is generally all push cuts.

Of course there are better steels, I would not argue that either, M2 would surpass D2 pretty much directly as a cutting tool.

-Cliff

 

[Jeff Clark]

I think that some of the confusion about the characteristics of 440A comes from equating various German or European alloys to 440A. According to the Linder Steel Table German 1.4034 alloy is similar to European X46Cr13, and falls within the specs of USA 420. They correlate 1.4110 to X55CrMo14 and 440A.

Looking at 1.4110 it has less carbon and less chrome than 440A and adds a bit of Vanadium. I would expect this alloy to be a little softer than 440A and to have a finer grain structure and to take a finer edge with less sharpening. It is closer to AUS-6 in composition. This explains why I don't like "440A" as much as some people who are buying imported knives. I would rather see AUS-6 or 1.4110 on a blade than 440A.

http://linder.itchi.de/s/static/en/stahltabelle.html

 

[Roman Landes]

For this kinda work I never use the D2 440C or whatever stainless stuff.
Here my favorites ar clearly the carbonsteels like
1.3505 (52100) or
1.2008 (140 Cr3), Chrome is calculated 4times
1.2842 (O2),
1.1545 (W110) works also fine.

For very high egde retension and wear resistance on very fine edges I go to the tungsten alloyed coldworkers like
1.2510, 100MnCrW4 (O1 )
1.2419 (105WCr6),
1.2516 (120WV4)
or for maximum 1.2562 (142WV13)

Cr Chrome and Tungsten (W= Wolfram) are calculated times 4, means a 4 for allyo is equvalent to 1%!


And again for the 440A if you neglect the possible hardness that can be acieved and you employ an edge and crossection on it like on the 440C, D2 knives, there is no positive gain in performance visible.

 

[allenC]

Clint,

"I don't understand why people dump on a average steel just because there are supersteels available.

That is like saying a family sedan SUCKS because it is not a sports car."


We're talking about knives, not cars.
A sports car is NOT a family sedan, they are designed with different purposes in mind:

The sports car for transporting one or two persons around with great speed and agility (and for getting the hot babes!).

The family sedan for transporting one to six persons around in relative comfort.

The to types of cars cannot really be compared.

But how can you say that (for example) a stockman folder with 440A and a stockman folder with 154CM cannot be compared?
A stockman slipjoint is a stockman slipjoint and switching the blade-steel will not change that fact.

It's not like I was comparing a bayonet made of 420 with a barlow made of S30V.


Angelus1781 posted a question on this forum asking about the performance of 440A, so I told him my opinion.
That's what we're supposed to do here, right?

One of the best things about Bladeforums is that folks here tend to be honest about knives.
Those knive magazines seldom if ever give an honest review of a knife or of a blade-steel.
But here on the forums, if forum-members think something is subpar, they will say so.
I appreciate than, and I hope you do as well.


Happy hunting,
Allen.

 

[Roman Landes]

Well to me here was 440 A is X43Cr13
and If one wants to correlate 440A to X 55 CrMo 14 this is also good
It makes only slight differences by enhancing the pitting corrosion resisence by adding some Moly and to keep hardenability at its level one adds 0,1 in Carbon.

Same HT for both the will end up the same level of hardness.

And again on has to look at the geometry too, and see that the potential of the steel is to provide a very thin blade with a fine angle e.g. wonderful for very good Kitchen cuttlery
Neiter of the stainless as I said work good for me e.g. in woodcarving where a fine edge is crucial.

No did you have a look ath the model of the edge guys?

What does it say to you?

 

[Clint Simpson]

We're talking about knives, not cars.

I was using an analogy: Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.

A sports car is NOT a family sedan, they are designed with different purposes in mind:

True, but I was referring to "performance"

The sports car for transporting one or two persons around with great speed and agility (and for getting the hot babes!).
The family sedan for transporting one to six persons around in relative comfort.
The to types of cars cannot really be compared.

You just did.

But how can you say that (for example) a stockman folder with 440A and a stockman folder with 154CM cannot be compared?

I never meant to say they could not, and if I did I was wrong and am sorry.

A stockman slipjoint is a stockman slipjoint and switching the blade-steel will not change that fact.

Are we still talking about steel or stockman folders?

Not to bust your chops but... I've studied how to dissect arguments, and you are making it easy.

I never meant to single you out. You just stated something in the clearest manner. Something I feel we need to be careful about and that is the bad habit of when something "new" comes out everything "old" is junk. You, Allen, most likely do not believe that nor do you have that type of thinking. Your expression, however, seemed to be easily identifiable with those who unfortunately do. I used it simply as an example, not an attack. For any offence, I'm sorry. In fact, I quoted you because I have nothing against you.

One of the best things about Bladeforums is that folks here tend to be honest about knives.

True

Those knive magazines seldom if ever give an honest review of a knife or of a blade-steel.
But here on the forums, if forum-members think something is subpar, they will say so.
I appreciate than, and I hope you do as well.

Again true, but I find as responsible adults we must be careful not to let our opinions get in the way of facts. or to let a personal bias (which can be a good thing) interfere with someone else' decision(which often is a bad thing)

Happy hunting,

Thanks I will. Figuratively of course!

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Hossom actually argues that S30V works better at a high polish and the edge degrades fast if you leave it with a rough finish, which is true for the work he does which is generally all push cuts. -Cliff

Once again Cliff, you have no idea what I do, and it most certainly isn't all about push cuts. Your quote on the polished edge is correct, however, but that would also apply in some degree to ANY steel IMO.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...you have no idea what I do

This is based on the cutting work done in the various reviews. Which for example is almost the complete opposite in style of what Boye tends to do which is almost all pull cuts. Same as most of the ABS guys and others who do a lot of draw rope cutting, they don't go to very high polishes. Last time I checked with Kirk about the competition sharpening, the edge there has teeth as well, and again a lot of that is draw cutting.

...that would also apply in some degree to ANY steel

Sure for push cuts, the opposite is true for slicing/draw cuts. Mike Swaim bought this out over a dozen years ago on rec.knives, he mainly worked with files first, but later extended it to rougher stone finishes. That was when I first read of his work, and it was *old* news by then as Joe has long since FAQ'ed it. He later quantifed it with some numbers extending Mike's work.

The issue gets a bit complicated based on how you define those cuts, for example if you "draw" a blade down though a piece of bone, the actual cutting is done on a push even though it is a draw cut as micro teeth on an edge can't readily saw into the bone, they will just get deformed. Thus again a high polish works better, same for soft metal cuts.

So if you wanted a more rigerous statement it would lie along the lines of "as the media gets soft/open enough for micro teeth to saw it, the cutting ability and edge retention will increase with the roughness of the finish".

There is a stopping point at which you lose gains however, I usually use 100 AO, Chad has said that 80 grit AO works even better, I have tried really coarse 40 grit ZO and that would not cut all all, the individual teeth were no longer well formed.

-Cliff

 

[Lazarus Long]

Reading the steel faq, it seems 440a is an okay steel, being the most rust resistant of the 440 series, but it doesn't perform as well as 440c. My question is, if schrade plus steel is 440a how did their knives become so popular? I mean if tons of people bought their knives and used them...their steel couldn't have sucked. So where does 440a stand on the performance factor?

Because most people who buy those types of knives haven't used steels that would give them a point of reference. If they had used knives made of 420 all of their lives, they would think 440a was great, whereas someone who has used knives made out of CPMS90V would think it was "OK". It's all in what you have been exposed to. But to me 440A has its place in cheap user knives. A construction worker in a humid place would be well served by a knife made of 440A. I've used a old Spyderco Native in 440A and it was an alright knife, but compared to my Benchmade....

 

[allenC]

I did'nt know that Spyderco ever made the Native in 440A.

Are you sure?

 

[UltraSteele]

I mean if tons of people bought their knives and used them...their steel couldn't have sucked.

Dude... yes it could. Now don't you all hop on me for saying that... I'm not knocking Schrade, just 440A.

Most of the public don't know thing one about steel, or even knives. The vast majority might not be comfortable buying a "tactical" folder but have little problem buying a "pocket knife" for thier child, father, etc. Schrade knives are sold in corner hardware stores, sporting good stores, and every Sears in the US... its not hard to think Schrade has done its job of getting brand recognition and marketshare after 100 years.

But people don't care how knives are, just how much they cost. Many don't even care if they really work well!!

Anyway, I wanted to put in my two cents. People just bought the knives... they don't care that we know about all the really good steels...