440A vs. 420HC

Status
Not open for further replies.
It's an old thread but the perspective is fun. Buck's 420HC still has a good reputation all these years later because of the good heat treatment. I don't remember the last time I saw 440A discussed outside of being a point of derision for cheap knives. It's still used in Boker's Magnum line, several cheap Chinese brands such as Komoran, and various knives with fake steel stamps or unspecified "stainless" steel. I don't know if 440A ever got an impressive heat treatment back in the day. In all the places I see it used today, it's worth staying away.
 
mlovett said:
Again.. aus-6 IS a european copy of 440-a,, aus-8 440-b, aus-10 is a 440-c equivelent. ats-34-154-cm virtual twins.
Click to expand...

LOL. 15 year old thread. But let's correct this part above.
AUS6 , AUS8, AUS10 are Japanese Steels, made by Aichi Steel Co. located not very far from Seki City. The US Standard equivalents are correct. ATS-34 is also a Japanese steel and equivalent to CPM154.
The correct designation for AUS8 in the US is AUS8 or 8A according to the Maker. In Japan the steel is called A8.
Cold Steel may have started the erroneous name of Aus8A.
 
I was trying to find out anything I could about what my cheap Chipaway knife was made of. Maybe because the thread is 15 years old is why people kept using the phrase "gas station knives". I'm looking for any evidence that current Pakistani knives might be of a better quality than previously thought of back in the day.

It got started for me when I decided I did not want to carry a Chinese knife. I soon noticed that all of my small fixed blades WERE Chinese. I dug out this Paki blade and really like the bone & brass look plus the pointy drop point /dagger style. I'm just wondering HOW cheap it really is. I guess I just have to go out and whack it around to find out.
 
Chronovore said:
I don't know if 440A ever got an impressive heat treatment back in the day.
Click to expand...

Schrade called their stainless "Schrade +". From the about the early 60's till the late 90's "Schrade +" was 440A. Schrade heat treated it to approximately a Rockwell 58. It performed about as well as Buck 420HC, maybe a tad better.
 
Depends on the companies involved I guess. Schrade USA used 440A for all the "Schrade Plus" knives.
Buck and Case currently use 420HC (Case runs their 420HC a little softer than Buck, and calls it "True Sharp")
With a good heat treat, either will do what most people need a knife to do.

Back in the 1990's I had a Schrade/Old Timer "Sharp Finger" "Schrade Plus" (440A blade) skinning knife. It could skin 2 whitetail deer before it needed sharpened or stropped. I didn't, and don't, see any reason to complain about its performance.
 
I’m surprised no one has invoked the Rough Ryder name with all this discussion of 440A... I know some folks love their RR’s. Maybe the RR following can chime in with their experience? I know afishhunter afishhunter has at least one RR- how do you like it?

i find personally that any reasonable steel is effective for my day-to-day, but I’m not processing animals or whittling nails either.
 
Perhaps the 2020 OP meant where to buy the steel, not knives made with 420HC? If that’s the case, I’d suggest checking out the knifemakers’ subforum. Folks there may be able to help.

Also, I can’t resist: HOLY NECROTHREAD, BATMAN.
 
Heat treatment and kind of company and how they use it plays a lot in weather these steels can perform adequately. Buck is consistent with its heat treatment, I do not think a company like BudK or other cheap importers of knives really even know how the products they sell are even heat treated well. Or even if the steel is 440A or 420J2. So I imagine that a reputable company, like Buck or Kershaw, if they do heat treat 440A consistently, could make it a useable steel as an everyday user.
 
The resurrection of a 15 year old thread is ok if it brings up valid points to discuss that are still talked about today. Better to do that than to create another thread talking about the same thing, and we are constantly being told to use the search function. The point is a decent heat treatment make these steels a good EDC user for the average person, not the best steel, and to most of us not what we would first pick, but for a decent user they stil do the job.....just need to be sharpened every so often. I had a Schrade Uncle Henry (small 3 blade serpentine stockman, 897 I think ) in Schrade+ steel, it did okay. Lastly, I think it has to do with the company as well, Buck still makes good products and has a decent reputation, they are still around....I would be devastated to ever hear the news that they went the way of Schrade or Camillus. And it is interesting to note that most users of Rough Rider seem to be happy with the steel they use, I assume it is 440A, not the carbon steel line.
 
Last edited:
Whenever I see these old threads I get a kick out of clicking on usernames that I don't recognize and see when they posted last. Some haven't posted for years, kind of slightly wonder where they went...
 
EngrSorenson said:
I’m surprised no one has invoked the Rough Ryder name with all this discussion of 440A... I know some folks love their RR’s. Maybe the RR following can chime in with their experience? I know afishhunter afishhunter has at least one RR- how do you like it?

i find personally that any reasonable steel is effective for my day-to-day, but I’m not processing animals or whittling nails either.
Click to expand...
I have a few Rough Ryder. (Not too many, only 60 or so, in different traditional patterns. There are others here who have a lot more than I do.) They're good knives, quality well above their price point. Yes, they hold an edge. I used a Rough Rider large sunfish pattern to carve/whittle a lock mortise in a piece of seasoned oak for one of the cabinets in the sleeper of the expedited truck I drove at the time. No damage to the knife; blades didn't develop any wiggly-wobblies or break. Honestly, it didn't even need sharpened. It still cut paper. I did dry strop it (leather strop) though, which is what I was taught to dry strop after each use, whether it needs it or not, six decades ago, when I received my first knife.

When I was younger, I have used 440A (Schrade USA, "Schrade +"), 420HC (Buck) and even 1095 (Western and Schrade USA) for processing whitetail deer and other critters I harvested.
The pre-bankruptcy Old Timer "Schrade +" 440A used on the 6OT; 7OT; 154OT "Sharp Finger", and a couple Schrade and Uncle Henry fixed blades I don't recall the model numbers of any more. (I also had one or two irrelevant to this discussion Schrade family non "Schrade +" with 1095 blades, a Western L66, and a couple Old Hickory)
The pre-bankruptcy "Schrade +" 440A would gut/field dress and peel 2 ... 2.25 whitetail deer before the edge needed stropped.
My Buck 110's with 420HC would gut/field dress and peel 2.5 ... 2.75 whitetails. (my older 110 with a 440C blade would do 3 to 3.25 whitetail.)

As an aside:
The Schrade, Buck, Western, Old Hickory alike, were all sharpened to 10 DPS/20 degrees inclusive.
"Tactical" knives with their obtuse 30 to 50 degree inclusive edge hadn't been invented yet. At the time, a knife had a 20 degree inclusive edge angle. Axes, Hatchets, Tomahawks, Adz, etc. were 30 to 40 degrees inclusive.

When butchering the whitetail, I didn't use a knife only. Also used were a cleaver, a saw and/or axe/hatchet for the ribs and bone. Generally speaking, I used my (carbon steel) Old Hickory cleaver, 7 and 10 inch "butcher knife", 3.5 inch paring knife, and 6 inch(?) boning knife, and a no idea what brand it was or weight wood hafted hatchet. ("Use the proper tool for the job" was driven into my (possibly probably most likely somewhat thicker than normal) skull from a young age.)

I can also tell you from personal experience, the pre-bankruptcy "Schrade + 440A" and Buck's 420HC will strip up to 4 aught welding and battery cable (and cut up to 8 or 10 gauge electrical wire), cut nylon reinforced heater and "food grade" hose, radiator hose, scrape several head gaskets from inline 4; 6; and 8 cylinder, and V-8 engines, (regardless if a flathead, "L head or overhead valve engine),scrape off old dried out cork and paper transmission gaskets, scrape carbon off pistons and from combustion chambers of the heads and the valves, etc., cut saplings and grass or pine brose for a shelter or camp bed just fine, requiring a stropping maybe once a 18 hour "work" day.

When camping, I always managed somehow, to find enough dry twigs, leaves, etc., for kindling. Just where I was going to pitch the tent or build a shelter, and/or clearing the fire pit area so the fire didn't/couldn't spread, 9.9 out of 10 times. I've never had to use my knife for obtaining or processing fire wood.
There also always seemed to be an abundance of downed branches of various sizes and/or trees to get the necessary branches for the fire.

I'll admit in some rare instances, there was a distinct lack of available firewood. However, when that happened, there was usually a good supply of dried meadow muffins, and/or cow/steer/bull chips* to be had in the area. :D
*To date, I've not camped in an area with buffalo chips. :(

Also, you should have enough (brown not cotton) twine that if you need to use some for kindling, it won't make you short for all the other "bushcraft" things you need twine for, like assembling your shelter or blind. (Y'all carry (brown not cotton) twine when afield, right? :D )

Y'all may not like it, (I ain't referring to the "like" button) or wanna hear it, but it is the truth:
The post bankruptcy 440A, in the "Taylor Schrade's" (my few "Taylor Schrade's" claim 440A) and the 7CR17MoV of the current BTI Schrade's, hold an edge just as long, if not a hair longer, than the pre-bankruptcy "Schrade +" 440A does.

Honestly? 440A and 420HC still meets the needs of the average knife user, "knife knut" or no.

I have D2, S30V, and CPM154 blades. Do I really "need" those steels? Nope. That don't mean I don't enjoy using those knives though. Would they be my "first choice" for a journey into the sticks or more distant and remote boonies? More like "last choice", actually. I know the "simple" steels like 440A, 420HC, and even one of the 10xx carbon steels will do everything I need a knife to do in the field without chipping or breaking. I don't know if the more advanced steels will without chipping or breaking. I can fix a rolled edge, if necessary, in the field. A chipped or busted blade? Not so much. Ain't like I can run over to the nearest store and buy a replacement when out in the wilds, either.
 
Last edited:
afishhunter said:
I have a few Rough Ryder. (Not too many, only 60 or so, in different traditional patterns. There are others here who have a lot more than I do.) They're good knives, quality well above their price point. Yes, they hold an edge. I used a Rough Rider large sunfish pattern to carve/whittle a lock mortise in a piece of seasoned oak for one of the cabinets in the sleeper of the expedited truck I drove at the time. No damage to the knife; blades didn't develop any wiggly-wobblies or break. Honestly, it didn't even need sharpened. It still cut paper. I did dry strop it (leather strop) though, which is what I was taught to dry strop after each use, whether it needs it or not, six decades ago, when I received my first knife.
Click to expand...

Hahahaha, ask and you shall receive...
Long post, but a good one- seems like a reasonable man using knives reasonably coming to the conclusion that 440A is a reasonable steel.

In my estimation it's so hard to stay objective when using knives, or for that matter have enough control over the variables to do much of a study, but I think we knife users have a good relative scale for steel.

Sounds to me like 440A and 420HC are similar enough. I wonder if sometimes we're talking about improvements in functionality in these more typical "budget steels" that are small enough that in terms of practical use, they don't matter. I know my Gerber LST is softer than my Camillus scout knife (420HC vs 440C) from sharpening both, but when it comes to cutting stuff on a day-to-day I don't think I've ever worked either of them so hard they became dull.

I really think I'm going to get one (or two?) of those rough ryders and see for myself.
 
I'll help keep the zombie alive a little longer.

Regarding Rough Riders, I have a few. I bought 'em because I have a few pair of pants that don't handle pocket clips well. That seemed like a good excuse for a new knife. I don't use the RR Canoe or Barlow for skinning, gutting or surviving. But for everyday mail opening, hose cutting, and admiring, the RR's do fine. If they get a little dull, a few passes on a chunk of ceramic gets them back to very sharp.

Last time I was on the west coast, I was knifeless, due to travelling with only a carry-on. My nephew loaned me a Buck lockback for the week. It was dull as a spoon. One evening, I fixed it up on the bottom of a coffee mug at the B&B. It worked great for the rest of the week. Mostly lunch/picnic duty. Nephew appreciated the sharp edge and the lesson on coffee mug sharpening. ;^)
 
Alberta Ed said:
Randall uses 440-B, and no one says they don't cut. I could be quite happy with my Bucks in 420HC.
Click to expand...
In my experience, Randall’s SS has always been terrible. Even though, if I’m not mistaken, they’ve used ATS-34, which isn’t bad if well heat treated and with a good design.
 
number9 said:
Last time I was on the west coast, I was knifeless, due to travelling with only a carry-on. My nephew loaned me a Buck lockback for the week. It was dull as a spoon. One evening, I fixed it up on the bottom of a coffee mug at the B&B. It worked great for the rest of the week. Mostly lunch/picnic duty. Nephew appreciated the sharp edge and the lesson on coffee mug sharpening. ;^)
Click to expand...

"I was knifeless" might as well read, "I was lifeless". Been there before. You'd think you'd be okay, but you just feel naked. Kudos to your nephew for having a blade you could borrow. Kudos to you for getting it sharp the MacGyver method.

That's something I never really value until I hear stories like this; sharpen-ability. We don't always have our sharpening stones on hand.
 
What's the difference between the Colonial COL5500 Quick Flick knife I purchased from an online store $4.75 and the Colonial knife from their website $45, Colonial 5200 Assisted Opening Tuckerman Ravine Knife?

Hi all, I'm new and just wanted to know if the knife I bought is the same one they sell on their website?

I purchased a Colonial COL5500 Quick Flick Linerlock Assisted Opening. I know it's an uber inexpensive china made knife and I'm fine with that. I wanted a beater knife.
However, I was wondering if it's steel is 440A, like it says on the model they sell on their website? Everything on the two knives are the same, blade shape/style, handle shape, markings on blade, pocket clip and it says 440A Stainless on my blade too.

The only differences I can tell by the specs are the dimensions and the colour of the handle camo vs. black. You can see the pics of the knives in the links I provided.

I like the knife for what it costs and build quality, what I really want to know if my blade is the same Rockwell heat treated 58-C 440A as their model on the website.

I know that my knife is a cheap china made, not the USA made knife that Colonial Knife has historically made since 1926. I like their automatic Ranger Series knives made with higher quality super steels. But the prices are $120+ and Automatic knives are prohibited in Canada.

Thanks for all your help/replies!



Colonial COL5500 Quick Flick Camo $4.75
https://www.knifecountryusa.com/sto...-camo-nylon-handle.html?avad=211021_a1d1a6f21

Description
Model - COL5500. Assisted opening. 7.63" closed. 3" black finish partially serrated 440 stainless drop point blade. Camo nylon handle. Extended tang. Thumb stud. Lanyard hole. Pocket clip. Clam packed.
Specifications
  • Model Number: COL5500
  • Made in China
  • Colonial Knives - Quick Flick Linerlock Assisted Opening
  • Model: COL5500
  • Assisted opening
  • 3" Black Finish Partially Serrated 440 Stainless Drop Point Blade
  • Camo Nylon Handle
  • Extended Tang
  • Thumb Stud
  • Lanyard Hole
  • Pocket Clip
  • Clam Packed


Colonial 5200 Assisted Opening Tuckerman Ravine $45
https://www.colonialknifecorp.com/c...model-5200-quick-flick-assisted-opening-knife

The blade on the 5200 assisted opening "Tuckerman Ravine Knife" is hardened Rockwell 58-C, 440-A cutlery stainless steel, and extremely sharp.
 
Last edited:
Chronovore said:
It's an old thread but the perspective is fun. Buck's 420HC still has a good reputation all these years later because of the good heat treatment. I don't remember the last time I saw 440A discussed outside of being a point of derision for cheap knives. It's still used in Boker's Magnum line, several cheap Chinese brands such as Komoran, and various knives with fake steel stamps or unspecified "stainless" steel. I don't know if 440A ever got an impressive heat treatment back in the day. In all the places I see it used today, it's worth staying away.
Click to expand...
camillus used 440a in some of their slip joints. the large trappers i own in it, seem decent on heat treat and hold a good edge compared to moderns I own claiming to be of 440a. I lean towards camillus proper heat treated 440a back then.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top