.45acp vs. 10mm

clockman, I believe a 41 mag is actually about double the energy of a 10mm. A standard load for a 41 mag, and within book limits, is a 210 grain half jacket at 1700 plus fps. That's way beyond a 10. The case capacity tells the tale and, in fact, a 41 mag case is tricky to sort from 44 mags when they're piled together. I know, I've sorted a lot of the brass over the years preparatory to reloading.
 
Old CW4 said:
338375, Earlier. I built mine from parts and a NM slide, barrel, bushing, etc., more than 50 years ago and on a cheap Essex frame no less. I still don't exactly know how I did it but this pistol has a trigger pull of a bit less than 1.5 lbs and it has never double fired. I've done innumerable trigger jobs on every type of gun out there but have never been able to duplicate the smooth and almost too light trigger on this NM. I even carried it for a while on duty years back but was always nervous with it drawn when in a tense situation. I sure didn't want to shoot accidentially but I didn't have the heart to stiffen up its trigger so I got another 1911 for duty carry. Yeah, I know, keep the trigger finger outside the guard but, when you're pussy footing down a pitch black alley after a perp you know is armed and nuts, I just want to have to only twitch to return fire with no other motions required. A heavier pull is best for those situations so the NM was retired to range firing only. I've been offered 2.5k bucks for it and I wouldn't take triple that. BTW, over a bench or table and at 20 feet or so, it will put round after round in the same bullet hole. It makes a kind of flower with all holes overlapping. No bull. I've won some serious money doing that with the NM.
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That is a light trigger pull and very surprising it never doubled. I've never had a 1911 with a trigger that light. Years back, when you cold still pick up Norinco 1911's for next to nothing, I picked up a couple and reworked them.
They actually had very good frames and slides,, and were very surprising pistols.

I had a Springfield that shot like your NM. When I bought it, the slide was not fit to my liking, so I sent it in for repair. When I got it back and took it out to shoot it, I couldn't believe it. I was so surprised by the workmanship and accuracy of it, I called the Spingfield service dept to find out what they had done. I found out then when I called to talk about returning it, I was talking to one of the custom shop guys, and when it arrived, he took care of it :D

I made the mistake of letting my friend take it home so he could see.
He is a very accomplished shooter, and has some very nice 1911's, including some original Pachmeyer's that are great shooters. He told me he could shoot a little better with the Springer, than with the Pachmeyer match pistols.

I know what you mean about duplicating trigger pulls. The worst for me is Glocks. I have done a fair amount of trigger jobs, and have a couple that just turned out incredible. Some of the others weren't even close, and I did the exact same things to each one :confused: They are always better, but its frustrating when you know how nicely something can function, but you just can't get there :D
 
erichsen said:
There is a good reason .400 CorBon the numbers above look like this - that's one hot loaded .400! Normally .400 CorBon is somewhat less than a warm/hot 10 mm loading and above a typical .40 S&W loading (including +P). Granted, .400 CorBon has support from several major manufacturers, but it's a boutique caliber and all the same issues with 10 mm apply, only more so.

To each his own.

-E
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Those numbers were for factory (CorBon) loads which are commercially available.

FWIW I owned a G21 that I converted to .400 CorBon. I liked the round and didn't have any problems with it, though I eventually sold it due to not liking the platform; at some point I'd like to convert a 1911. The nice thing about it is that you don't have to buy a new pistol, only a barrel.
 
338375, One of my current favorite 1911s is a Springfield V16 that shoots both 45ACP and 45 Super with a recoil spring switch. I ordered 500 rounds of 45 Super brass from Starline and have had a ball with it. You can cook up some wicked but safe loads using published specs for the round and come up with 250 grainers whacking out over 1200 fps, a lot of energy.

The main problem with the V16 is the 45 Super rounds. They are externally identical to 45ACP except for the headstamp and I have to use care to keep them positively segregated. I don't want to ever put a 45 Super round through any of my other 1911s. I'm sure they'd be damaged.

As you said, Springfields can be super accurate and the V16 is sure that especially with its six inch barrel. The only bitch I have with it is the barrel porting. I'm not a fan of ported barrels. Springfield wants a mint to install a non ported barrel and they absolutely will not sell such parts to anyone. Oh well, I'll live with it for the time being. It is a superb pistol and I believe they've stopped making it so maybe I'll have a 'rare bird' down the line.
 
Old CW4 said:
338375, One of my current favorite 1911s is a Springfield V16 that shoots both 45ACP and 45 Super with a recoil spring switch. I ordered 500 rounds of 45 Super brass from Starline and have had a ball with it. You can cook up some wicked but safe loads using published specs for the round and come up with 250 grainers whacking out over 1200 fps, a lot of energy.

The main problem with the V16 is the 45 Super rounds. They are externally identical to 45ACP except for the headstamp and I have to use care to keep them positively segregated. I don't want to ever put a 45 Super round through any of my other 1911s. I'm sure they'd be damaged.

As you said, Springfields can be super accurate and the V16 is sure that especially with its six inch barrel. The only bitch I have with it is the barrel porting. I'm not a fan of ported barrels. Springfield wants a mint to install a non ported barrel and they absolutely will not sell such parts to anyone. Oh well, I'll live with it for the time being. It is a superb pistol and I believe they've stopped making it so maybe I'll have a 'rare bird' down the line.
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That would be a fun round. Definitely not for someone that doesn't pay attention to things though.
I remember looking at the V16 some years back, but have never shot one. Yours sounds like a keeper, and no doubt it will be a rare one in the future.

I had a Springfield Champion for awhile about 5 years ago. It was a nice pistol too.
They really do make some great 1911's. I'm with you on the porting.I don't care for it on pistols or rifles
 
I've been shooting a G20 for about 6 months now, maybe a year. I only shoot factory loads, I still need to get reloading equipment.
80% of the rounds fired have been 'lite,' the full loads are difficult to get here in Holland, but neither load gives me much problems rapid firing, and I have rather small hands.
I have never shot a G21 but I do have a lot of experience with a Colt Combat Commander in .45, and the Glock - to me - is as easy to shoot as the Colt (which is saying something).
I am a certified Glock fan, so not very objective, to say the least. But if you leave brand aside, I don't see any advantage to the .45 ACP, unless perhaps recoil is an issue - which it isn't for me, but YMMV.
I do know, when I start reloading, it won't be reduced loads I'll be producing... ;)
 
5.56 said:
I own a few 45's, but I am hearing good things about the 10mm rd.

From what I am reading, the 10mm typically yields higher velocity and energy, and in most configurations allows for more capacity. I hear some favor this round for self defense at home and in the wilderness.

I just wanted hear some thoughts from any of you that own a 10mm handgun, and about how it really stacks up against the .45acp.

I realize accuracy and recoil will vary from weapon to weapon, but in general, how does the 10mm compare to the .45acp?

Thanks
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The 10mm is between the .357 Mag and the .41 Mag, with more firepower(rounds). I really like the 10mm for hunting, wilderness and home defense. The only downfall is the cost of ammo.
I just ordered a Les Baer in .45 but my next purchase will be a Dan Wessen in 10mm. They are both great cartridges, but the 10mm is better for hunting or defending against larger North American Game.
 
yablanowitz said:
...Out of the dozens of handguns I own, the Glock 20 is my bedside companion.
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Mine too. Of course, my only other hand gun is a .22 Single-Six...

I did a lot of research on the .45/10mm issue before buying my Glock 20 about 6 years ago. From pretty much everything I read, it's the right gun for what I need: household defense, and a carry gun in the woods. I don't hunt, so that's not an issue for me.

I wanted a gun with high capacity, good knock down power, good reliability, a decent price, and manageable. My Glock is all of that, and I've been very happy with it. I paid $600 for it, I have no trouble finding ammo for it (various types of hollow points or jacketed), and Double Tap and others make higher power rounds for heavier targets.

Recoil on my gun is definitely there, but it's not unpleasant at all. I'm a decent sized guy (6'4", 210), but I'm no big time shooter. I don't find the recoil intimidating at all on this gun. What makes me flinch, if I don't watch it, is the blast from the gun. I mostly shoot .22's, so when I occasionally take a shot with my G20, it's quite a difference. A little trigger control and proper gun handling (and good hearing protections!), and it's very pleasant to shoot.

I won't say a 10mm is the perfect gun, but I sure feel a lot better having my hand on it when I'm deep in the woods and something large starts rustling in the brush!

I like gear that looks cool, and maybe because it's so plain, I really like the way my G20 looks:
dsc015008042414.jpg
 
SkinnyJoe said:
...given the 10mm's rise and fall, I have to wonder about the value and future of the .357 Sig.
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I keep hearing about the fall of the 10mm, but after years of people promising it's demise, it's still around, and still has a strong following.

The .357 Sig I have a hard seeing a use for.
 
Yes, it's still around. Still good. With one exception it doesn't matter that it's not in widespread use. I'm a big fan of the glock 20 but... oddball ammo ... availabilty and price! If you get one, also set aside money to buy in bulk & reload.

Compared to the .41 mag...no they are not equal per se. No the .41 round is not twice as potent. Both have a range of loadings, and hot loaded 10mm is pretty close to a midrange .41...both excellent rounds with less following than they deserve.
 
This has been a very interesting thread. I like both the .45 and .40 for EDC and home defense, and the 10mm for woods carry, as others have mentioned. It seems to have enough power for things here in Colorado, and one of our fellow forumites took down a nice sized hog last year with a single shot with his Glock 10mm.

I really go between the standard 1911 and the Glock 23 for home use. My favorite is usually the one that I used last... :D
 
Thank you erichsen for the great retrospective on the round! :thumbup:
As many other advances in technology often the promise does not live up to expectations.. Nevertheless it is good to have them all :)
 
5.56 said:
Thanks for all the info guys

I own a Glock 21 .45 already and I am eyeing the Glock 20 10mm. I don't doubt either ones effectiveness against a human target. One main concern with my .45 would be it's effectiveness against a large animal. I don't plan on hunting with a handgun, but here in the mountains of CA we do have black bears.

Do you think 165gr +p corbon .45acp would be enough in a bear attack scenario? How about the 10mm?
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Only a solid head shot at close range is going to reliably put down a big heavy bodied predator. Chances are if it's farther away and you see it, you can make some noise and scare it off if it doesn't avoid you on it's own. 10 mm with heavy rounds or .45 with heavy rounds are going to do about the same amount of harm to the brain case - choose whatever you can competently put a round where it's needed - takes a ton of practice and a lot of ammo (here is where .45 wins, hell of a lot cheaper to shoot though a case of quality ammo than 10 mm).

For walking around with any big predatory critters in the wild, you'll have precious little time to ready a weapon from the time you are aware of a sharp toothed/fanged critter in your immediate proximity. A good holster in a comfortable position is key. Leave the concealed carry type stuff at home, they aren't nearly as good for quick deployment. For obvious reasons, this is also not a good time to be plugged into your iPod ignorant of your surroundings with your only protection packed in the bottom of your pack.

Bear attacks are a gruesome thought - nothing short of a flamethrower would make me feel like the odds were evened, but since that's not practical, a wheelgun (with it's lack of gubbins to break or jam) would be my preference, and nothing less than .357 with softnose semi-wadcutters would do, at the very least making a good noisemaker to scare something away that you can avoid shooting.

-E
 
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The 10mm in it's original form was meant for folks in uniform. The problem was, the muzzle blast and recoil had a negative effect on a lot of folks. The 40S&W was an incarnation of a powered down 10mm. If you buy full power ammo in 10mm, it ranks as a round capable of taking medium to large game. It is Ted Nugent's favorite back up while on African Safari.
 
mossyhorn said:
The 10mm in it's original form was meant for folks in uniform. The problem was, the muzzle blast and recoil had a negative effect on a lot of folks.
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I've heard this a lot, and I guess it must be true for people who don't shoot a lot. I'm 5'7", weigh around 180lbs and have smallish hands. I have no problem at all shooting the Glock 20, fast, lots of rounds. Considering the purpose this gun was originally bought for by LE agencies, I don't really understand why people chose to downgrade from the 10mm. Fair enough if you're a recreational shooter, but for a gun that is to be used in life or death situations?
 
I think most new people need to work up to large calibers rather than start at the top and drop down. I taught myself to shoot better by starting with a .22 revolver, moved up to .38, and then to .45. Put in a lot of time at the range. When I was decent with the .45 I started shooting the local matches.
 
Ted Nuggent shoots a glock 20 and he could shoot any custom gun he wants,that says alot to me.
 
trailbum said:
Ted Nuggent shoots a glock 20 and he could shoot any custom gun he wants,that says alot to me.
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Who?:D

Jk - One should shoot every gun they can until they find the one that is optimal for them. Recoil is different for everyone, ie follow up shot times, as are maintenance schedules ie. some guns require more cleaning and maintenance

Can you kill a bear with a 45? Don't know, but I suspect you can, same as with a 10MM. If you have 8 shots to deter a black bear - would it really mattter if you hit him?

I like both but I really like the data from the 10mm cartridge, but I love to shoot 45's too ;)
 
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