5160 Forged Knives *work in progress

You've definately got a future in making hoof knives. That actually looks better than a lot of commertial ones I've seen.
 
NStricker is right. I'd find another piece of steel to work with, maybe something that is known, and try that out. You are obviously willing to put in the work but when the steel isn't exactly known you may be asking for more heartache in the future. Keep on truckin' bro. You are heading in the right direction.
Mike
 
NStricker said:
I seem to recall reading a while back that Wayne Goddard had some misadventures with leaf spring that he thought was 5160. Turned out it wasn't, and he eventually guessed that it might have been 6150.

Bottom line, you're working with mystery steel. It might be 5160, it might not. Good attempts, nonetheless.
Click to expand...


I played Tim Lively's video on repeat all day as I worked on the Bowie knife, and during the heat treatment process. He re-called saying to Harden the knife 3 times. I hardened once!
I also hardened using heavy weight motor oil 20 w50. Today I am going to buy a ton of tranny fluid. Maybe the viscosity of the oil not staying in full contact with the blade? So today I make right and stay up-most true to Tims way LOL.

I am also going to try and get the edge paper thin seeing how tough this metal is.
Could this have been my screw up ?
 
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Here is a very informative video series watching a sub hilt fighter being made from start to finish. It's Kyle royer, very talented maker and a well put together video set (12 videos). One of the things you mentioned in your post that I noticed which might help you out. You said you sharpened the knife before hardening, try filing your bevels into the knife and leaving 1/16" or a little less of the knife edge blunt (wouldn't cut butter) then harden the blade and temper it then sharpen your edge. Watch the videos though they should be very helpful. Also please post what temps you are using to harden your blades and the tempering temperatures. One last thing is I wouldn't use the piece of steel that burned up in the forge because it most likely changed it's physical properties by getting to hot and burning out carbon or alloying metals making it non uniform. Pick up some new steel for the first few tries until you know how the metal behaves and can eliminate guessing what is causing you problems when it might be an unknown steel takes one variable out of the equation.
 
David Stifle said:
Cody,

I'm impressed with your determination and approach. Keep it up, Bro. You'll get it!

Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks a whole lot Dave.

Whether or not this bowie is 5160 or 6150 I'm going to make that darn bowie razor sharp. I will be manually tempering. I make knives with a minimalist approach, and although I do have a shop of tools deep inside myself I feel like it would be cheating if I touched any of them. Just in case the END times does come I want to be able to forge weapons with fire, and a blunt object, and make them serve a work purpose!
 
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jrscgsr said:
Here is a very informative video series watching a sub hilt fighter being made from start to finish. It's Kyle royer, very talented maker and a well put together video set (12 videos). One of the things you mentioned in your post that I noticed which might help you out. You said you sharpened the knife before hardening, try filing your bevels into the knife and leaving 1/16" or a little less of the knife edge blunt (wouldn't cut butter) then harden the blade and temper it then sharpen your edge. Watch the videos though they should be very helpful. Also please post what temps you are using to harden your blades and the tempering temperatures. One last thing is I wouldn't use the piece of steel that burned up in the forge because it most likely changed it's physical properties by getting to hot and burning out carbon or alloying metals making it non uniform. Pick up some new steel for the first few tries until you know how the metal behaves and can eliminate guessing what is causing you problems when it might be an unknown steel takes one variable out of the equation.
Click to expand...

Where can I find this video at? How much is it?

I am waiting on the arrival of my Primitive knife making video with Tai Goo, and Tim Lively. I was told it will fill me in a whole lot more.

As far as tempering I am not using an oven. I am tempering old school, blades edge up, spine stuck in charcoal, and watching the selective colors.
SOOOO even if this is 6150 which I went ahead and researched. I can temper it as well. Last night I went and picked up a 60-100x LED illuminated magnifier from Radio Shack to get a better look at the edge when I hack at a board looking for the folding\chipping. I will temper it on this basis!

I think the fact I did not harden 3 times, is what threw off the matrix of alloys. In Tims video he doesnt harden 3 times.. they video him doing it once, and for 5 seconds he says "You want to harden three times". That 5 seconds I missed.

So when I think about the metals composition and thermal changes. I normalized 3 times, which worked the differential of molecular changes preparing it. Then I harden once, and tempered 3 times.. Tempering it 3 times probably was not good at all because I didnt completely harden all the constituents of the steel. **I will see with this bowie as I am not going to deviate at all from Tim's approach**. OHHH also.. like I said.. I used motor oil. After researching.. I found that the viscosity of the motor oil could be another reason for improper quenching as the oil maybe didnt stay in contact with the blade the entire time as I hardened it. I didnt have tranny fluid and at the time thought "What the heck.. quenching's quench'n", and little did I know the importance of quench liquid and it's effects.

-Learning curve (forearm hurts.. 8 days straight, 5-12 hours hammering each day)
 
Cody,

I've quenched in vegetable oil for years, the cheapest stuff you can find at your grocery store. It has a high flashpoint, and works very well. I personally do not like using auto oil or tranny oil.

Just a thought.

Dave
 
CodyOebel said:
Where can I find this video at? How much is it?
Click to expand...

I have good news about the price. :)

Go to: www.youtube.com

Enter ' Kyle Royer ' in the search field.

And you're there.

When you're done, enter ' Dick makes knife ' in the search field for a decidedly more light-hearted, but still very informative series of videos on the forging of a full tang camp knife by our own Derrick Wulf.

Roger

PS - using a known steel AND a known quenchant would be my recommendation. Also, there is a wealth on technical / practical information available to you in the knifemakers subforum. A TON of questions useful to all newer makers have already been asked and answered there:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=741
 
NStricker said:
I seem to recall reading a while back that Wayne Goddard had some misadventures with leaf spring that he thought was 5160. Turned out it wasn't, and he eventually guessed that it might have been 6150.

Bottom line, you're working with mystery steel. It might be 5160, it might not. Good attempts, nonetheless.
Click to expand...

I looked into 6150.. found it's a tough as hell steel just like 5160.

I found it not to be much different other than tempering. I got my illuminated 60x magnifier from radio shack last night. To get a good look at the edge during the temper edge test for rolls\chips.

I think my failure was all in my missed steps of the process. I will not make this mistake with the bowie. So should I fail to achieve razors edge with the bowie. Then I will be stumped, and will conclude a possible mystery steel.
 
No doubt that if the steel was used for springs, that it is hardenable to a degree. The problem is, what is the process to harden it to where it is usable for a blade? Temperature? Soak time? Quench time? Tempering temperature? Of course you can use the typical process of 1) normalize 3 times, 2) heat to non-magnetic, 3) quench in oil, 4) file test, 5) temper, 6) brass rod test, 7) re-temper as needed or start over.

You have 2 variables going on here--you, the new maker, with very little experience, and an unknown steel. I'm not trying to be insulting here. Even an experienced maker would have to experiment a) to see if the steel is hardenable and then b) test a knife to destruction to see if the material is worthy of use. That is only practical if the maker has access to a good quantity of the material and is confident that it's the same steel through the batch. Otherwise, testing is folly.

You've already invested time and materials in these blades, invested in a loupe to inspect the edge, invested more time in the blade to get to a razor edge. In the end, cheap steel isn't always that cheap.

Try getting some known steel that is amenable to a primitive setup--like known 5160 or 1080--and concentrate on technique. Both can be purchased through Kelly Cupples or Aldo Bruno for very reasonable prices.
 
Really sorry about missing the link to the Kyle royer vids on YouTube. I'm posting from my phone and must have missed it. Like mentioned just go to YouTube and search "Kyle royer sub hilt fighter". Enjoy and keep up the hard work, it does pay off. I also use canola oil to quench as it's cheap safe and effective.
 
Ok.. here some photos and video's of the progress on the bowie which has come a very long way thanks to the help of my beautiful wife who was not filled to too much pride to let me video her not all dressed up. LOL

She didn't give me permission to post the video of her making the handle, but I am doing it anyways.

She's working the handle here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCzcIXJZoW4

Here is the handle she chiseled out we are drying the midwax mahogany coat, and will be putting on the protective coat when it dries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8eyDwFaZzg

Here I am normalizing to north as you can tell I was explaining to my wife with my hand gesture pointing to magnetic north. I used my cell phones digital compass, but am going to be ordering a survival compass soon enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcMfV6X_CRk



Here I am putting on the ingut I sawed, and filed to fit good and tight.
Notice where the ingut meets the ricasso. I recessed the ingut into it for a nicer fit much to the same Tim Lively does his knifes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLVkgG2U52c

Now here is some photos below.
Normalized the first time.. blades pointing to magnetic north.
Normalize1.jpg

Leather kit we bought at Tandy Leather. This way my wife works the sheaths, and saves me a whole lot of time.
codyoebel
/LeatherKit.jpg[/url]
Here is my wife working on the sheath.
SheathStart.jpg

Here she has about finished the tooling. I drew the JR, and the antlers to give her something to tool it in. It came out nicer on the leather than I had penciled it in. The JR stands for my brother in law Jason Ridgeway, and the antlers for the hunting ranch he manages.
SheathMade.jpg

Here I am sawing the ingut to get enough room for filing it out.
IngutSaw.jpg

Here I have put together the ingut, the guard, and the handle to get an Idea of how it's going to look.
PICT0013.jpg

KnifeSoFar2.jpg

KnifeSoFar1.jpg


Ok.. TOMORROW is the BIG DAY! Right now I have normalized the blade 3 times to magnetic north, got it up to non-magnetic for a 4th time, and it's sitting outside under coals which I have been feeding for the past few hours and will throw some on top before hitting the sack tonight. Im anxious because I have screwed up and burned blades.. but tomorrow I am going to focus.. using that magnet I am going to ensure each time that I'm at the right temperature.. just a little over non-magnetic, and will dip it into transmission fluid.

For those of you who might have been looking for a container deep enough to quench even a 18" long bowie I found the solution. At walmart in the kitchen area there is stainless steel pots and so forth I found a stainless steel cylindrical cookie jar looking container for 8$. PERFECT for a deep big blade quench! I will have pics or video's of it tomorrow from the hardening process!
 
NStricker said:
No doubt that if the steel was used for springs, that it is hardenable to a degree. The problem is, what is the process to harden it to where it is usable for a blade? Temperature? Soak time? Quench time? Tempering temperature? Of course you can use the typical process of 1) normalize 3 times, 2) heat to non-magnetic, 3) quench in oil, 4) file test, 5) temper, 6) brass rod test, 7) re-temper as needed or start over.

You have 2 variables going on here--you, the new maker, with very little experience, and an unknown steel. I'm not trying to be insulting here. Even an experienced maker would have to experiment a) to see if the steel is hardenable and then b) test a knife to destruction to see if the material is worthy of use. That is only practical if the maker has access to a good quantity of the material and is confident that it's the same steel through the batch. Otherwise, testing is folly.

You've already invested time and materials in these blades, invested in a loupe to inspect the edge, invested more time in the blade to get to a razor edge. In the end, cheap steel isn't always that cheap.

Try getting some known steel that is amenable to a primitive setup--like known 5160 or 1080--and concentrate on technique. Both can be purchased through Kelly Cupples or Aldo Bruno for very reasonable prices.
Click to expand...


I agree with you allot, and I am sure others will also, but I am the most stubborn of people as you can already tell. I will if I must.. harden, temper.. -re-normalize, re-harden, re-temper.. over and over until that edge doesnt roll or chip. If I get better at making the knives prettier LOL... and someone wanted to buy one from me. Then you folks from the forum would know that I wont give you an edge that wont hold, a knife that breaks easily, or something I wouldn't want if I was alive after a nuke war and depended on my knife!

I have three old 70's model catering trucks all the same model with these leaf springs on each of them. What I did do with the problem knife that I destroyed.. was what I DIDN'T DO, and knew I should have done!
I cheated myself in a sense. No different than if I never hardened the knife telling myself the steel's hard enough anyways, and sat around wondering why it doesn't hold an edge. I KNEW what I DID NOT DO, and this time no short cuts! I'm quenching in tranny fluid, and hardening 3 times. NOT quenching in 20w50, and only hardening once! That has failure written all over it, and so I am convinced that if I do this bowie right. Tomorrow after tempering.. I bet I'm going to have the knife I am meaning to build!

I'm just to stubborn friend, but thanks for the constructive criticism, suggestions, and advice!

:) I'm that little chicken, and your fog horn leg horn ;) I'ma learn yah sumpin.
 
jrscgsr said:
Really sorry about missing the link to the Kyle royer vids on YouTube. I'm posting from my phone and must have missed it. Like mentioned just go to YouTube and search "Kyle royer sub hilt fighter". Enjoy and keep up the hard work, it does pay off. I also use canola oil to quench as it's cheap safe and effective.
Click to expand...



Yeah a couple of other blade smiths giggled at me when I mentioned I quenched my 5160 using 20w50, and told me to look into viscosity, and filled me in on vaporizing, and so forth LOL.
Also only hardening my knife 1 time didn't help the steel none. I don't know what the hell I was thinking at the time to harden it only once instead of three times. I am convinced as with some of the other smiths that I clearly failed in my process by "THINKING" it would work the same but not following the simple procedure that "WORKS". So tomorrow I load up my tranny fluid. I will post pics of course ;). I got my magnifier to test for the edge integrity!
 
I found some 5160 manufacturers. I contacted them to see how much they would sell removed stock steel. I will report findings.
 
Here is Tempering 1.
Tempered1.jpg

Tempering 2.
Tempered2.jpg

Automatic transmission fluid, and quench container.
ATfluid.jpg

I'm knife sharpening hone collector crazy
Hones.jpg



WOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO 30 minutes of
sharpening, and it cut me twice. So I went to test the edge
on paper and VOILA BABY SHE's RAZOR SHARP. I took a
video I was going to shave the back of my head, but after
cutting myself so easily twice and feeling that edge and heavy
weighted blade on the back of my neck I stopped feeling
uncomfortable LOL.
CutThumbPicture.jpg



Ok Below is the videos of the edge test, Edge Abuse test, and shave.
I do have a video of me tempering the blade, but it was going to take 2 hours to upload meanwhile slowing down my other uploads. It was a video of the third tempering. I will upload it later tonight before I go to bed and edit this post, but the more interesting stuff I posted :).

I told the wife were going to get a better camera with Audio next paycheck. I'm tired of this not so clear video's and I take them religiously to share these tribulations with you fellow knife makers.

VIDEOS OF ABUSE AND SHEATH, AS WELL AS RAZOR EDGE TEST
YouTube - Cut1video
YouTube - ShaveLegnPaper
YouTube - ShavePapernHead
YouTube - Chop2x4nShave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16B3VJr1tFM

I'm going outside to start installing the handle now that
everything is solid. I used the radio shack 60-100x magnifier (8$) during
tempering, and it took four tempers.. as I kept the edge
straw color not so much bronze. I had rather it been
harder than be softer, and need to be re-normalized,
and re-harden, and the patience paid off!

I know exactly what I did wrong with the little knife!
 
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