52100 Fowler Video Questions

Well, besides the grinder and buffer, did you think about buying a forge and forging equipment? And the right equipment to do the necessary heat treating to make a high performance blade out of the raw 52100 steel?

The high quality and performance of Ed Fowler's knives do not only come from using the right steel. It is at least as important to use the right forging and heat treating methods.

In my opinion you may well come along without a grinder and buffer by using hand tools for the finishing, but you can never make a high performance blade without using the right forging and, even more important, heat treating methods.

About the sheep horn. To the best of my knowledge, Ed Fowler uses his own domestic sheep horn which he lets sit outside for years to cure it and to dry it out, i.e. let the outer lanolin wash away by rain and wind. I doubt that you can find a normal handle material supplier for this stuff. Making your own means you would have to wait for some years. One way may be to take an occasional look at eBay. Sometimes you can buy some old, cured sheep horn there. But then, there are also a lot of other useable handle materials that can be bought from suppliers or other sources. One of my favorites for it's strength and beauty is moose antler.

Achim
 
hi this is DaQotah

I have spent the last week or so watching the Fowler 52100 video over and over.

I have been taking good notes on the things presented in this video by Mr. Fowler.
If it was talked about or if I saw it in Mr. Fowler's hands I made note of it and in the order it appeared during the completion of his knife.

I still have questions...

Mr. Fowler spends a lot of time on the handle of his knife. The handle is made of sheep horn and in time I also wish to learn how to make such an excellent handle but for now I think I shall stick to something more ordinary.

This is for two reasons. First I have done a bit of searching and have been unable to find a sheep horn dealer to buy some horn from. And second, although I have made a few knive and other weapons as seen on my websitete http://daqotahforge.tripod.com but I have also used just wooden handle materials.

I wish to learn the methods Mr. Fowler uses to make his handles but to just use a cheaper material to start with as I do learn.

What would be a good material to use? And where can I obtain some of it?

The next question I had deals with the knife sheath that Mr. Fowler makes for his knives. In the 52100 Video and in the book KNIFE TALK there is not any word of gouging the inside corner areas to allow the leather to bend around the knife tighter as is seen in the book HOW TO MAKE KNIVES. I want to know if Mr. Fowler also uses a gouge to scratch the inside on the leather to help the sheath wrap around the knife?
 
Ed, I know you're well stocked on sheep horn, but DaQotah raises a good point and one I've wondered about myself, "If there were no sheep horn for a Pronghorn, what would be your second choice?" I believe the only other handle material I've seen on any of your knives was the stag you used on that ax and knife set you did with Joe Szilinski.

6698528.jpg


Please Ed, inquiring minds want to know.

;)
 
There are Rumors that hint at linen Micarta Being used on a pronghorn at one time. Though I personally don't know anyone who has seen this Knife. Maybee a very good friend and aprentice.;)
 
Hello Phil: When I started making knives, I could not afford micarta so sought a substitute. I tried elk, deer and moose antler, bone and wood. Sheep horn was plentiful and free for the asking. Since that time sheep horn and I have become inseperatable. What would I use if I did not use sheephorn? I have several blocks of rag micarta but have never used any, I do like it. Bill figured right on my second chioce. I guess I would probably use linen micarta. I do have one in my collection and sold one a long time ago, I made one other for use on the kill floor I did volunteer word on. I love the 'immation ivory', to me it is absolutely beautiful and almost as durable as sheep horn. The micarta is not subject to bugs eating on it which is another plus. I also love ironwood and snakewood and mountain mahogany.

My suggestion to beginning knife makers is to find something that is in your area or represents the (for want of a better word) atmosphere of the knives you want to make.

As I will use anything for a knife handle as long as it comes off of a sheeps head a friend, Glem McPheason has provided some 'Musk Sheep" horn from
Alaska for a knife that I will make this year.
Thanks for posting the collaboration set, there will soon be a third member, a folder, to go with the knfe and hawk, Joe is working on it now and it will be at Blade Show West. It will have stag on it and will be the proberty of MCGREG should he accept it.

DaQuo'ta: I do gouge the sheaths to allow them to fit tighter. Some of the supply houses now have linen micarta for sale.
Sheep horn is an excellent teacher, I have learned a great deal about the human hand when attempting to blend the natural contours of the sheep horn to fit hands. It can be very challenging, and sometimes frustrating. I have been working with horn that has been waiting for my skills to equal the challenge it presented. In other words, I have passed it by hundreds of times for more adaptable pieces of horn. I decided I had to use some of them or they would crowd me out of my shop. Sometimes I spend hours shuffeling sheep horn to find the right one. I would advise you to use twisted limbs and irregular materials, this will challenge you to preserve the natural contour and beauty while trying to make it fit hands. This approach is not condusive to high production rates, but rewarding in many ways.
 
That's right, Ed. Going through the stock of natural materials is challenging but sometimes good fun, too, ain't it? Personally, i do the same when using tapered moose or sambar stag pieces or african antelope horns and to me it's a lot of fun and it sometimes even reminds me of materials i forgot about.

Achim
 
I failed to mention that all of the matching curves, geometric progressions and compliments you see in the hawk - knife set as well as the carving of the eagle heads are the work of the genious of Joe Szilaski. All I did was the blade, fit a rough guard and do the heat treats on the steel. Joe is a friend who has taught me a great deal about the planning of art and making thoughts come to being. Last year at Blade Show West I was trying to visualize what was wrong with one of my Gentleman's Pronghorns. Joe traced its form on a piece of paper then erased one line and drew the way I wanted to see it. Five strokes with a file and the vision came to life. An amazing lesson, presenting a solution to an opportunity that I had been missing for years. When you see Joe's work, and take the time to study his thoughts you have the opportunity to invest your time wisely.
 
Hi this is DaQo'tah!

I took Mr. Fowler's advice and placed an order for 52100 steel from the same guy he gets his steel from. I have not heard back yet when the steel will be forged down to my size yet. The guy I talked to on the phone said he will forge the steel I ordered from a rod about 6 inches across, thats a lot of forgeing!.

This also means that my blade will be forged out of an even bigger raw steel than Mr Fowler used in the 52100 video.

I have also just ordered the set of sanding belts that Mr Fowler talks about in the 52100 video, (36 grit, 60-180 and 500) with extras.

I also just ordered buffing wheels for one of my two new bench grinders I picked up last week. I also got two new grinder stands so that I will do my buffing over the floor as I have been advised.

I have also just checked out the Bob Brownells website (not that great of a site to use if you ask me) and looked at the buffing compound that Mr. Fowler uses along with the type of glue (Brownell AcuraGlass)

The Buffing compound is around $10 each!
and the glue is around $19!

Spending that for glue is a bit high for me,,,I may keep looking for something in my price range.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about what type of handle to place on my knives,,,I want to pick a handle material thats from my area, something that means something to me , and what I have come up with is to try to make my handles out of Moose antler.
But I dont have any, and so today I placed an ad in the Local Grand Forks Nd paper.
I hope someone sees it this week and sells me a good supply.
 
Moose antler is a very good choice. It is dense, hard and beautiful material. Some looks like greyish marble when polished. I use it a lot. Be sure to use old antlers or let it dry for a year or so when fresh. Otherwise it may shrink some. If you get old, white antlers with cracked surface, fill the cracks with very thin super glue. Normally the cracks in moose anter are very shallow and the material is plenty stout to use. These antlers look like old ivory when polished.

What about your forging equipment? What will you be using for forging and heat treating?

Achim
 
DaQo'tah: It isn't how expensive material is, but how much it costs. Costs come in the form of maintainence, frustration and future repairs as well as toil and trouble.
Like Achim said, Moose Antler is beautiful material. One thought, always respect your handle material, some is easily replaced,some one of a kind never to be available again. I have had some very rare and beautiful black sheep horn waiting to be part of a knife, it has patiently waited in my shop for years. I waited until I felt my abilities were developed to the point that I could do it justice. Angie has requested that I use it, I waitied. This past two months I knew it was time to use it, the latest blades now have reached the level of my dreams, they are there! Still there is room for more, but now I fully believe the steel, the blade geometry and potential of the handle material are all within my ability. It has not happened as one single event, but evolved ever so slowly, one minute step at a time.

The first year after I started forging knives, I did not complete one knife, but tested every one to destruction, seeking to know the limits. This can become an obcession, well worth the investment, but costly also.

Take your time, but hurry!
I do not mean to put pressure on you, simply share thoughts.
 
Hi this is DaQo'tah...

My ad will be in the newspaper in the morning, I will let you guys know if I get any bites...LOL

To Mr. AchimW,- thanks for all your advice, I as yet dont have a gas forge, nor will I be able to own a Big power hammer for a few years, BUT...in the meantime...

I made kinda a coal forge, that seems to work like a charm,

I work near a huge coal field and dump ground from time to time so I get it free (I get it free as in I get it under the cover of darkness with my wife driveing the get-away car with me jumping in the back with two buckets full and yelling "HIT IT!",,,,that kinda free.)

This link I hope will take you to some photos of the first time I fired up the forge to heat a spring to test it out on, I dont have all the photos up but you can get the idea....LOL

http://eastof29.tripod.com/daqotahforge2/id4.html

and, I have been thinking alot about the Power Hammers that Mr.Fowler used in the 52100 video, and trying to find a way to "fake" the work of the power hammer.

The biggest Power Hammer that Mr. Fowler used was said to be the 150lbs hammer. He says that each time the hammer bangs down its 150 lbs. Now when I think about that, thats not really that much weight..and so I have been kicking around the idea of making a little bottle jack press.
The reason I might make a press is that I think a press even a very small one can do a lot of work for me for very little money, thus allowing me to fake the 150lbs power hammer for a while.

I think a press might work cuz it's power is never stopping, unlike a hammer that hits, then "nothing" then hits again,,,,a press just hits once and keeps on pushing not letting go,,,,. (I dont know, perhaps it will work, perhaps not, Im sure if it really worked that Mr. Fowler would use one...)

I have read on this Forms site that tests have shown that Power Hammers make slightly better cutting steel, but, who knows, perhaps I might invent something...LOL
 
You don't need a power hammer to start making knives. In fact, you just need power hammers or presses to bring big sized material down to the size where it can be forged by hand, but if you start with pre forged material as you said you will get from the steel dealer, i don't see too much use for a power hammer or press at all. At least in the beginning you should get along without it.

Take care at what you are doing with your forge. Your forge setup seems to be sufficient, but be aware that the coal you are using contains large amounts of volatile matter and SULFUR (!!) that has to be burned out before you can put steel into the fire. YOu have to coke the coal before using it, because else the sulfur will get into the steel and hurt it badly. That's the reason why most bladesmiths today use either gas or charcoal or coke. No sulfur, no volatile matter.

Achim
 
Hi this is DaQo'tah

well...I have not received any answers to my ad in the paper looking for Moose antler.

In other DaQo'tah news, I have yet another question about Mr Fowler's 52100 video.

In the video we watch a 3 inch ball bearing being forged into a knife. My question is, "How big of bearing is actually needed to just make that blade?" ( I understand that it's always better to forge from as big of raw steel as obtainable)

The reason I ask is, that I just found a full bucket of 1 & 1/2 inch ball bearings at my place of work.

Are they the same type of 52100 bearing quality steel that is used by Mr. Fowler?...beats me, I dont have any way to tell, nor do I even know where the bearings came from but they were just sitting there...so I prayed to the good Lord in Heaven, "Oh Lord, if you want me to sneek this entire bucket of ball bearings into my car, Please give me No Sign at all..........Thy will be done!"

so I took em all...

Anyway, I was just thinking, is a bearing thats only 1/2 as big as the 3 inchers seen in the video big enough to practice with?

I took the bearings out to my shop and just barely touched one to my belt grinder and it tossed a ton of sparks!

I think 1 & 1/2 inch bearing is within my abilities to flatten without a power hammer. It also would be fun to follow along with the video this weekend and make a blade step by step with it.
 
IF hese bearings are made of the same kind of steel cannot be said without analyzing them, but chances are good that they are. That's because 52100 is a VERY common steel to make ball bearings and races all over the world.

I did a short calculation and a bearing of the size you mentioned should weight in at a tad more than 7 ounces (220 grams). Even if you consider some material loss in the forge and at the grinder, this should be enough material to make a blade for a good sized hunting knife. I once made a puukko blade of 3 1/2" length and more than 1/8" thickness out of a 1" ball bearing.

Achim
 
Forge one of those puppies down into a rectangular shape and see how long it is. If it is big enough for a full tang great, if not make a stub tang and weld allthread to it, or make a shorter blade. Unless they are case hardened they should make a deicent blade even if they are not 52100, and the practice of forging one down will be worth it all by itself.

Matt
 
Hi this is DaQo'tah

ok, Im going to watch the first part of the Fowler Video this weekend, then run out to my shop, fire up my coal forge,,,,and see what happens...LOL

I weighed my bearings and the one I had in the house to show my wife is about 270-300 grams, about a hair under 10 ounces. It looks to me off hand to be about the size of a golf ball, or a kids jaw breaker.

I dont plan to etch it to see the flow of the steel, but I will grind flat an area, and fire up my little Buzz-box welder to see if I can weld it to a rebar.

I hope to test a few ideas on my press, then (when that dont work) I will hit it a few billion times to see if that works,,,
 
I like that idea to just worry about the blade first off, then if I need to , add a tang from other steel that I got on hand,,,,that saves me much trouble.
 
DaQot'ah:
Just a warning, I have heard tell that hardened ball bearings can shatter dramatically when weled to a stick. I recomend that you heat it to a cherry red color and either weld it hot or let it cool down slow then weld to your bar. I have never seen one shatter, but hear the story enough that I do not take a chance.

You will be surprised by how much steel is in that ball bearing.

Enjoy!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top