52100 vs W2

Walt2

Walt2

Joined
Mar 13, 2001
Messages
1,157
I have used quite a bit of 52100 but never have used W2. Some people favor W2 and I am wondering how the two compare in general as far as edge retention.
 
W2 will develop an amazing hamon. Both are pretty equal performers otherwise.
 
Sharing my limited case, please don't infer/deduce :foot:

I've made quite a few knives in 52100 but only 3 W2(1/8" thick of Aldo's current batch - 0.93%C, 0.17%V,..). However I heat treated each W2 knife 4 times with different ht params (thermal normalize, cycling, temperatures & quenchant - park50, brine, super-quenchant, and points along the tempering range 325-450F) spanned multiple days due to W2 edge retention was poor. Result were consistent for each ht attempt - except the knife got thinner & less wide. e.g. 52100 can cut 600+ linear ft of cardboard and still slice newsprint vs W2 dulled (failed to slice newsprint) after 20 linear ft.

My result for 4 ht tries:
* W2 easily get dry-shave sharpness, 52100 needs strop tiny bit longer to get there.
* W2 & 52100 have excellent edge stability - no problem whittle dry hardwood with twisting exit and remain sharp.
* W2 easily dulls by small # of cardboard cuts. Puzzling low edge retention compare to Aldo 52100 & Aldo 1095.

btw - I've sent Aldo a fairly detail email 6/4, still waiting for his ht recommendation.
 
That's interesting. I haven't made any knives out of the new batch of W2 yet. I got it about a week ago, but am finishing a few projects before I start using it.
 
Willie71 said:
That's interesting. I haven't made any knives out of the new batch of W2 yet. I got it about a week ago, but am finishing a few projects before I start using it.
Click to expand...

Ditto! Pretty strange that the W2 has that much LESS edge retention....as far as Bluntcuts test anyway!! I always suggest a normalizing heat of 1600-1650 (I think W2 can stay around 1600) to begin with. Then the usual thermal cycle down. And 1450 for 15 minutes into Parks 50. 400F twice 2hours. Should have edge retention out the wazoo!!!!
 
:thumbup: We do think alike - here is a snippet from my email to Aldo

1st ht:
Normalised (with tool wrap) 1650F 15 minutes soak; thermal cycle: 1600F, 1550F, 1500F, 1250F; hardening 1460F 10 minutes soak; super quenchant(brine+detergent+surfactant) quenched; cryo; 2x 400F tempered.


edit: for 2nd and 3rd ht, I quenched in brine. 4th ht I quenched in Park50 (aust at 1500F, 5 minutes soak).
samuraistuart said:
Ditto! Pretty strange that the W2 has that much LESS edge retention....as far as Bluntcuts test anyway!! I always suggest a normalizing heat of 1600-1650 (I think W2 can stay around 1600) to begin with. Then the usual thermal cycle down. And 1450 for 15 minutes into Parks 50. 400F twice 2hours. Should have edge retention out the wazoo!!!!
Click to expand...
 
Both make good knives with a proper HT but all things considered 52100 will have more edge retention and be tougher as well.

You cant get a great hamon with 52100 though and you need a digital oven or send it out to really get the most out of it. Properly HT 52100 is one of my favorite steels. You can take it up to 60RC for most edges and not have chipping. At 57-58 its tough as hell and still has good edge retention.
 
Bluntcut....we do indeed think alike!! Thanks for posting your HT that you did. That helps us out alot with this thread...learning what we can. Your thermal cycles temps look fairly good, but if it were mine, after the 1650F normalizing, I would just do 1550, 1450, and then 1400F. I see you have 1250F as the last heat. Was that 1250F for an hour or two for spherod annealing? Because I don't think 1250F is hot enough to change the structure of the steel, just enough to stress relieve. Just sayin. I know guys like to cryo steel, but W2.....I think you're wasting time and energy. Cryo is really for stainless steels. Mf of W2 is a few hundred degrees, IIRC. So cryo doesn't do much of anything, that is my understanding. From what I gather, with carbon steels like W2, if you see performance gains by cryo...something was off in the heat treat.

I take it the "tink" fairy stayed well away from your blades that went into water/brine? Good for you! I'd be a little scared she would show up around my place!!!! I've got a scandi buschraft knife from Aldo's latest W2, almost ready for HT. I've done the normalizing and grain refining already, just gotta austenitize that puppy and temper it.

I love 52100 and W2. My favorite carbon steels (not counting Hitachi). Have yet to try the super steels like cpm 3v and cpm m4!
 
With hypereuctoid steels, cryo can help with the last few percent retained austentite. The Mf of steels with carbon at 1% or above is subzero, but not confirmed, according to Verhoeven. I remember someone did tests with 52100, and were able to get an additional Rc point with cryo, but I have no idea how or even if that translates much into real world performance. I am curious now, and will be pulling out my W2, and making a simple blade out of it to check performance. The steels I am REALLY confident in my heat treat now are 52100, O1, and 15N20. Comparing the W2 to these should tell me something. :thumbup:
 
FWIW here is my 4 ht attempts ... again please don't infer/deduce much from my specific case, it's merely a FYI about my odd W2 results :)

1st ht:
Normalised (with tool wrap) 1650F 15 minutes soak; thermal cycle: 1600F, 1550F, 1500F, 1250F; hardening 1460F 10 minutes soak; super quenchant(brine+detergent+surfactant) quenched; cryo; 2x 400F tempered.

2nd ht:
Normalised (with tool wrap) 1650F 15 minutes soak; hardening 1485F 10 minutes soak; brine quenched; cryo; 2x 400F tempered.

3rd ht:
Normalised (with tool wrap) 1650F 15 minutes soak; hardening 1500F 10 minutes soak; brine quenched; cryo; 2x 400F tempered.

4th ht:
Normalised (with tool wrap) 1600F 10 minutes soak; hardening 1500F 5 minutes soak; Park50 quenched; cryo; 2x 325F tempered.
 
I have a knife just finished tempering right now. Its soaking in lemon juice to remove the decarb. I'll hopefully get to test it tomorrow.
 
Th heel didn't fully harden, so I re heat treated the knife today. Its tempering right now.
 
I'll be doing the HT on the W2 scandi knife tomorrow (along with a normalizing, grain refining, and spherodizing of some blue steel san mai), and will test and report my findings as well. I know that cryo/cold treatments are a hot button topic with knife makers, and maybe rightly so. IF there is a chance of getting another point with cryo/cold.....knife makers are going to do it. However, low alloy steels, W2 being a GREAT example of a LOW alloy tool steel, do not have an Mf temp below even freezing. Aldo's W2 has .934% carbon. Let's just say 1%. A 1% carbon tool steel, with the alloying elements in it adding to about .7% (the Mn, Si, Cr, and V in Aldo's W2), we still have a tool steel that has an Mf of about 300 degrees F (Steel Heat Treat Handbook). Without the alloying elements, just a 1% carbon tool steel, the Mf is about 375F. From what I understand through my research (research....not real life testing....yet), W2 and the low alloy tool steels will have ALL RA taken care of with the third temper. The numbers, anyway, say that no change can occur, even with cryo, once the Mf is reached. And the Mf of W2 is around 300F. Now after saying all that.........Don't taze me, bro!!!!
 
I can't speak for the w2, since I haven't use it but the 52100 blades I've tested had great edge stability and pretty good edge retention. I did some hard wood carving tests baring down on the blade with some twisting with no chips or rolls. The blade was ground thin, also did some abrasive rope cutting and the blade held a working edge for a good long time.
 
I had unexpected company two days in a row. I will be getting back to the knives tonight.
 
bluntcut said:
Sharing my limited case, please don't infer/deduce :foot:

I've made quite a few knives in 52100 but only 3 W2(1/8" thick of Aldo's current batch - 0.93%C, 0.17%V,..). However I heat treated each W2 knife 4 times with different ht params (thermal normalize, cycling, temperatures & quenchant - park50, brine, super-quenchant, and points along the tempering range 325-450F) spanned multiple days due to W2 edge retention was poor. Result were consistent for each ht attempt - except the knife got thinner & less wide. e.g. 52100 can cut 600+ linear ft of cardboard and still slice newsprint vs W2 dulled (failed to slice newsprint) after 20 linear ft.

My result for 4 ht tries:
* W2 easily get dry-shave sharpness, 52100 needs strop tiny bit longer to get there.
* W2 & 52100 have excellent edge stability - no problem whittle dry hardwood with twisting exit and remain sharp.
* W2 easily dulls by small # of cardboard cuts. Puzzling low edge retention compare to Aldo 52100 & Aldo 1095.

btw - I've sent Aldo a fairly detail email 6/4, still waiting for his ht recommendation.
Click to expand...

I would question your heat treatment of the W2. I haven't done any scientific tests, but my W2 blades are noticeably better than the 52100 blades I made years ago. In edge holding and toughness at higher Rc numbers... It Kills 1084 & 1095!

I've found 1450 and less soak time to give much better results. 68.5 Rc right out of the quench (Parks50) and 62-63 after two 1 hours temper cycles at 425, or 61-62 at 450.

Not all W2 is the same though. It varies widely...
 
samuraistuart said:
I'll be doing the HT on the W2 scandi knife tomorrow (along with a normalizing, grain refining, and spherodizing of some blue steel san mai), and will test and report my findings as well. I know that cryo/cold treatments are a hot button topic with knife makers, and maybe rightly so. IF there is a chance of getting another point with cryo/cold.....knife makers are going to do it. However, low alloy steels, W2 being a GREAT example of a LOW alloy tool steel, do not have an Mf temp below even freezing. Aldo's W2 has .934% carbon. Let's just say 1%. A 1% carbon tool steel, with the alloying elements in it adding to about .7% (the Mn, Si, Cr, and V in Aldo's W2), we still have a tool steel that has an Mf of about 300 degrees F (Steel Heat Treat Handbook). Without the alloying elements, just a 1% carbon tool steel, the Mf is about 375F. From what I understand through my research (research....not real life testing....yet), W2 and the low alloy tool steels will have ALL RA taken care of with the third temper. The numbers, anyway, say that no change can occur, even with cryo, once the Mf is reached. And the Mf of W2 is around 300F. Now after saying all that.........Don't taze me, bro!!!!
Click to expand...

Hey, I'm no expert on this. :) According to Verhoeven, the Mf could be between -100c to -200c. This is the discrepancy that causes a lot of confusion. I don't know what the answer is.
 
I'm at Rc65 after a 375f snap temper. I did the standard grain refining cycles, and austentized at 1450f for 5min. I did an interrupted quench in DT48.
 
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