52100 vs W2

Don Hanson III said:
Russ Andrews had a piece of the 2" rd bar analyzed, results below. I was told all the round stock was from the same melt and I believe it because it all acts the same. Had some square/rectangle stock that wasn't as good.

C .95,
Mn .22,
V .19,
Cr .15,
Si .23,
Mo .013,
Ni .08,
Cu .14
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OK, so you don't have one of the 1.2%C versions. It all looks pretty similar to Aldo's, but I didn't go element by element to compare. Vanadium is marginally higher, as is carbon, but not by much.

I am at Rc62 after a 425f temper, so hardness wise it is similar to yours too. I'll do a bit of cutting tonight and see where that leads me. So far, no concerns on my end with what I am seeing. If its better than my O1/15N20 in edge holding, I won't see a problem. :thumbup:

I have some W1 that is an odd composition. It has 05% Carbon, .75% manganese, and small amounts of vanadium and chromium. I will try it and see how it performs, but its an odd composition.
 
Willie71 said:
OK, so you don't have one of the 1.2%C versions. It all looks pretty similar to Aldo's, but I didn't go element by element to compare. Vanadium is marginally higher, as is carbon, but not by much.

I am at Rc62 after a 425f temper, so hardness wise it is similar to yours too. I'll do a bit of cutting tonight and see where that leads me. So far, no concerns on my end with what I am seeing. If its better than my O1/15N20 in edge holding, I won't see a problem. :thumbup:

I have some W1 that is an odd composition. It has 05% Carbon, .75% manganese, and small amounts of vanadium and chromium. I will try it and see how it performs, but its an odd composition.
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I'm at 63-64 Rc at 425 temper.

Aldo's W2 was based off these numbers, so it should be very close. :cool:
 
I rechecked my hardness, and I was off just a bit. I am at Rc63 :thumbup:. I sanded the blade to fresh steel and there are a few whisps of decarb left. I thought it dropped a lot in the last temper :confused: :foot:. I tested right on the edge of one on the previous test. EDIT: I got curious, and tested a few more spots. The blade is Rc64 from mod point to the tip, and Rc 63 for the back 1/3 of the blade. I suspect this has to do with the interrupted quench and clayless hamon. This is a thin sujihiki that starts at 1/8" at the ricasso, and has a full distal taper to the tip. There is significantly more mass at the heel.

I did some cutting tests, and the W2 lasted for 15% more cuts than a very similar 15N20 edge which was at Rc62. I think this W2 is fine :thumbup: :). This is consistent with my previous comparison of the 15N20 to O1- almost the same, and the 52100-10-15% better. The W2 is right about the same as the 52100 (I didn't compare directly. My 15N20 has been really consistent so I am extrapolating.)

Don for a kitchen knife would you leave it at 63/64?
 
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Don for a kitchen knife would you leave it at 63/64?
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Willie, I probably would. I carry a folder every day with a very thinly ground W2 blade at 63 Rc. Never chips and holds a great edge!

Have you tested hardness right out of the quench with this W2?
 
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I haven't tested without snap temper. I forgot to make a coupon when I did this knife. When I do the next knife, probably next week, I will do a coupon so I won't worry about cracking a blade. The Hitachi White is supposedly good to Rc66 in gentle environments in the kitchen. W2 is the closest we have available in North America to White steel so let's see how it works. 0.005" behind the edge and 11 degrees. I think I am going to try my 15N20 at 63/64 and see how it holds up in the kitchen too.

I will keep the sujihiki for myself, and test it for a few months before selling one at that hardness. I don't like failures in customer's hands.
 
Willie, Great to know that your W2 suji turned out well. Hence this batch of Aldo W2 is good. Obviously I messed up my multiple attempts of ht the same 3 blades. I will cut new W2 blanks and test them, reckon that my other 3 are in wacky state to be useful.

Just to have a point of testing reference. My 52100 can cut 200 linear meters of mix cardboard and still cleanly slice newsprint, while my botched-ht W2 dulled after 6 linear meters. Roughly, how many linear meters of various cardboard your W2 suji cut before fail to cleanly slice newsprint or phonebook paper?
 
I was cutting rope. I sharpened just to shaving sharp with both knives. I didn't want to be here all night. I lost count of how many slices I made, but switched knives every 10 cuts. The W2 kept going after the 15N20 stopped. It wasn't very scientific, but I could feel the difference about 2/3 the way into the cutting. When the 15N20 stopped, the W2 still had some life in it. I didn't keep going right to failure, as I have carpal tunnel syndrome. I went to about 40 cuts past the 15N20 failure. If I had a hamster, I'm sure I would have made a nice nest for it. :)

Bluntcut, my heat treat was very similar to Don's but my soak was a couple minutes longer. I will do my next one at 3 minutes like Don suggested. He's been working with this stuff forever, and has it nailed. No need to reinvent the wheel here.
 
Great thread here. Thanks to all of you for the great info. I had a very slight bow in my W2 scandi knife....which is a death "nail" for scandi grinds. But it came out dead straight with the 3 point clamp during temper. 360 for an hour. Then 390 for an hour and half in jig. Then 400 for two hours in jig. As I mentioned, I don't have a way to test RC, but I'm sanding down the edge to zero, and once past a very small decarb layer.....it is like trying to sand glass!!! Super hard!!!! You can feel/hear the difference when sanding!! ( I'm doing it by hand). Lovin me the W2!!!!!
 
Thanks Willie. As for rope cutting test. I recently conducted cut rope in the air and concluded that rope (1/2" sisal) is not abrasive. If cut rope against a backing (e.g. wood) then result mostly like reflect how tough the blade impact against wood. I've mentioned in this thread a few times, my W2 blade can whittle dry oak for a long time, so rope cutting probably doesn't measure wear resistance. Here is a link to my thread
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...nd-1-2inch-sisal-rope?p=13551059#post13551059.

If you are willing + time & resource permit, cardboard cutting test (although inconsistent medium) does measure wear resistant of an edge. Rolled-up old denim (jean) rope (says 0.5 to 1" diameter) cutting definitely will tell how wear resistance your edge in a few cuts.
 
I will try that in the future. To do this properly, I will need to do three pieces, 15N20, 52100, and W2. I will use identical profiles, and heat treat as optimally as I can.

I would suspect the chromium carbides in 52100 would be more wear resistant than the vanadium carbides in W2. Maybe that is part of the difference you are seeing?
 
Glad to hear this is working out. I have a few sticks. I did finish one knife that that only showed 40 at the tang but I did not grind of decarb because we wanted as forged look. But the blade did have a nice auto Hamon and it cut very well and had good edge stability. So I will assume it got good numbers at the edge. My heat treat was 1475 for 12 min in the oven with all cycling done in the forge just by eye. I started forging a puukko out so I will continue on with the project. Thanks
 
Don Hanson III said:
Willie, I probably would. I carry a folder every day with a very thinly ground W2 blade at 63 Rc. Never chips and holds a great edge!

Have you tested hardness right out of the quench with this W2?
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Don, I finally got a coupon done with the W2. I did the three step normalizing/grain refinement cycle of 1650f, 1550f, 1450f, 1200f. Then 1450 for three minutes. Came out at Rc66 with no temper. I will bump it up 10 degrees at a time and see if I can find a "sweet spot." I'll keep everyone posted.
 
Willie71 said:
Don, I finally got a coupon done with the W2. I did the three step normalizing/grain refinement cycle of 1650f, 1550f, 1450f, 1200f. Then 1450 for three minutes. Came out at Rc66 with no temper. I will bump it up 10 degrees at a time and see if I can find a "sweet spot." I'll keep everyone posted.
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Thanks Willie... I'm getting 67.5 to 68.5 with my W2 quench at 1450...
 
I got Rc68 with a 1460 austentize and 3-4 min soak. :thumbup: :thumbup:

I did 10 tests as this is the highest I have ever seen my tester read! Damn! That's awesome!

I'll try 1470 tomorrow, then 1480.
 
Just for interest, my W1 hit Rc66 at 1460f. It has to be closer to 0.9% carbon than 0.5%. 0.5% carbon should require 1500f+ to get those numbers. I'll keep testing it too. :thumbup:
 
Willie71 said:
With hypereuctoid steels, cryo can help with the last few percent retained austentite. The Mf of steels with carbon at 1% or above is subzero, but not confirmed, according to Verhoeven. I remember someone did tests with 52100, and were able to get an additional Rc point with cryo, but I have no idea how or even if that translates much into real world performance. I am curious now, and will be pulling out my W2, and making a simple blade out of it to check performance. The steels I am REALLY confident in my heat treat now are 52100, O1, and 15N20. Comparing the W2 to these should tell me something. :thumbup:
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I get my 52100 (aldo and alpha) heat treated by bos. They run all of their blades through cryo treatment.

I have not tested it against non cryo treated 52100, but the 52100 kitchen slicers I have made have always had incredible edge retention.

Btw I have paul run them to 61rc. And I grind post ht.

Nick
 
Willie71 said:
Just for interest, my W1 hit Rc66 at 1460f. It has to be closer to 0.9% carbon than 0.5%. 0.5% carbon should require 1500f+ to get those numbers. I'll keep testing it too. :thumbup:
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I've never known W1 to have carbon as low as .050%. Most of it falls between .90 - .100%.
 
Hey Don. I read one of your posts about not all w2 being equal. is the huge w2 round stock that you sold years ago as what you currently use?
 
Alright then. So for the W-2 short soak or should I say no soak is getting those numbers out of the quench. That is impressive if you ask me. I have a blade about ready to go so I am looking forward to seeing what I can get out of this.
 
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