$7 Edc?

Cliff Stamp said:
If there is an address on the package you could also write them a little describing the problem including a picture and a pointer to this thread. It would be interesting to see what responce if any would follow.
Click to expand...

Good advice.

I sent them e-mail - and got this response -

>From: "Crystal Brooker" <@kutmaster.com>
>To: "V T"
>CC: "Rick Joswick" <@kutmaster.com>, "Bob Mosca" <@kutmaster.com>
>Subject: Re: Problem with Mountain Quest LightWeight Liner Lock (91-MQ25CP)
>Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:04:18 -0500
>
>Vincent,
>
>You can return the knife to the address below and we will replace it
>at no charge for it is under a limited lifetime warranty. When you
>send the knife in be sure to have your return address in the package
>so we can get it back to you. If you have any questions or concerns
>please do not hesitate to contact me.
>
>Sincerely,
>Crystal Brooker
>Sales Associate
>Kutmaster a Division of Utica Cutlery
>820 Noyes Street
>Utica, NY 13503
>Phone 800-888-4223 ext. 222
>Fax 315-733-6602
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "V T"
>To: <sales@kutmaster.com>
>Cc: <VT>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:39 PM
>Subject: Problem with Mountain Quest LightWeight Liner Lock
>(91-MQ25CP)
>
>
>>Dear KutMaster,
>>
>>I recently purchased a Mountain Quest LightWeight Liner Lock knife
>>model - 91-MQ25CP
>>from my local Dick's Sporting Goods (on Feb/14/2006)
>>
>>Unfortunately I discovered yesterday Feb/27/2006) less than 2 weeks
>>- that the lower retaining screw for the pocket clip had stripped
>>its threads in the aluminum scale hole. This was from simply
>>carrying the knife clipped to my back-pocket.
>>
>>You can see my review thread and how pleased I was with its handy
>>design, size, and ergonomics - in BladeForums.com - Knife Reviews &
>>Testing section -
>>
>>$7 Edc?
>>
>>http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389144
>>
>>I would be very grateful for a response.
>>
>>
>>Many thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Vincent

I'll use this - if for some reason I can't get an exchange at Dick's Sporting Goods where I bought the knife.

--
Vincent
http://UnknownVT2006.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
On an interesting side note, many of the really cheap knives have very strong warrenties, they often don't ask or care about what was done with the knife.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, have you had any experience with the MTechs? The blade's plating looks pretty good and, like I said, it sharpens easily enough. Also, on another matter, are there any web resources on blade sharpening?? Too often I just put a utility edge on a blade without knowing of any other options.

Thanks.

Confed
 
From experience with lower grade knives in my youth...be careful. Your fingers are worth more than $7.
 
DaveH said:
One issue to consider is how much of your time did it cost to re profile and return the knife? If you pay youself $10 an hour, say, then the real cost of the knife is $27.

Is the knife really worth $27? If not you're better off just tossing it and forgetting about it if there is a problem.

One big Caveat is if you enjoy tinkering, then it's doing something you enjoy so costs don't much matter.
Click to expand...


Oh, come on Dave that sort of thinking really gets my back up. What about time reading here or taking a dump, push harder boy! You are costing me too much! ;)
 
OK, bearing in mind knife knut economics - I only returned the knife at Dick's Sporting Goods when I was going to pass by anyway - so that's zero $ for gas ... ;) :p

This was one of the most fuss free exchanges I've ever had the pleasure of encountering -

I went and got another knife from the peg - the clam packs are not sealed, so I was able to examine and take my pick of the two there.

Took the new one along with my faulty knife to the counter with my receipt - explained about the stripped thread on the clip - and said I wanted an even exchange - they just took the faulty one and that was it.....

The replacement one seems a bit better in terms of the lock -
the liner goes about 3/4 way across -
MtnQuest2Lck.jpg


The action is a bit tighter but still smooth I can loosen the adjusting screw to lighten it - but that leaves the screw a bit looser than I want it.

Like the previous one the hollow ground profile again did not thicken toward the edge (a good thing).

But the blade like the previous one had too obtuse an edge angle - and would only just barely slice paper.

This time it took me less than 1/2 hour to reprofile the blade since I've done it before so knew what to look for, and do - despite being half the time - I thought I did a better job on getting a semi-convexed edge -
MtnQuest2Bld.jpg
MtnQuest2BkBld.jpg


The blade is now VERY sharp - not only for slicing free hanging paper - but for cutting through things because of the good profile - convexed edge with a hollow grind that does not thicken toward the edge....

So I'm remain pleased with the design and handy size -
again only time and use will tell if the knife holds up -
I'll keep an eye on the clip in case it fails again.

But I do know that the store has a no fuss return -
and the company has a limited lifetime warrenty -
not too shabby for a $7 knife......

--
Vincent
http://UnknownVT2006.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
Vincent, this particular knife is not my cup of tea but I always enjoy your photos and reviews.
 
It's nice to read a review that is so thorough!

As far as that screw goes, there's just not enough thickness in the aluminum handle to grip enough threads. Add to that the fact that the hardness of the screw steel will tend to damage the softer aluminum handle, as the clip flexes. When such dissimilar materials are held together by threads, a greater depth is needed to spread out the stress. In this case, the handle is too thin to accept a longer screw. This means that there is very little in the way of mechanical attachment strength, so all you can do is increase the attachment strength with a bonding agent to the screw threads, such as Loc-Tite, or even an epoxy cement, such as JB Weld.

Tinkering with knives is good, clean fun! Don't listen to any of that "economic" stuff! :D
 
Pocketknife said:
As far as that screw goes, there's just not enough thickness in the aluminum handle to grip enough threads. Add to that the fact that the hardness of the screw steel will tend to damage the softer aluminum handle, as the clip flexes. When such dissimilar materials are held together by threads, a greater depth is needed to spread out the stress. In this case, the handle is too thin to accept a longer screw. This means that there is very little in the way of mechanical attachment strength, so all you can do is increase the attachment strength with a bonding agent to the screw threads, such as Loc-Tite, or even an epoxy cement, such as JB Weld.
Click to expand...

Many thanks for the advice.

Just a quick question - don't most adhesives including LocTite have some problems bonding with aluminum?

Thanks for the encouragement -

Both positive and negative feedback are welcome -
that's what gives a review thread some balance -
plus I learn more too.:thumbup:

--
Vincent
http://UnknownVT2006.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
Nice followup, it will be interesting to see how the knife uses, there are lots of knives in common use with low grade steels, with folders I would be most concerned about the mechanics though for light use this isn't going to be a real concern.

In regards to sharpening, Joe's FAQ and Steve's site are two places to start :

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/

Sharpening has three basic stages, shaping the edge to get the required thickness/angle, refining the bevel until the sides meet and the scratch patterns intersect and finally getting that intersection clean of debris and well aligned.

It is the last part which requires the skill, Jeff Clarks deburr method made a pretty big influence when I started using it awhile ago, the quality of stones does as well, inclusions damage the edge. The biggest influence to me personally was handling really sharp knives which has lead to a constant refining of what is "sharp".

There are lots of myths about sharpness, when edges get sharper they are weaker, coarse edges don't need to shave, shaving somehow is a negative thing, etc. . Sharper edges are free of debris, well aligned and formed of solid steel, they are obviously stronger than duller edges, except on tools which are not actually sharpened, the edges don't meet as on fireaxes for example

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
In regards to sharpening, Joe's FAQ and Steve's site are two places to start :

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/

Sharpening has three basic stages, shaping the edge to get the required thickness/angle, refining the bevel until the sides meet and the scratch patterns intersect and finally getting that intersection clean of debris and well aligned.

It is the last part which requires the skill, Jeff Clarks deburr method made a pretty big influence when I started using it awhile ago, the quality of stones does as well, inclusions damage the edge. The biggest influence to me personally was handling really sharp knives which has lead to a constant refining of what is "sharp".

There are lots of myths about sharpness, when edges get sharper they are weaker, coarse edges don't need to shave, shaving somehow is a negative thing, etc. . Sharper edges are free of debris, well aligned and formed of solid steel, they are obviously stronger than duller edges, except on tools which are not actually sharpened, the edges don't meet as on fireaxes for example
Click to expand...

Many thanks for the input Cliff -
do you have a reference to Jeff Clark's deburr method, please?

I am kind of enamored with the convexed edge -
it seems from my experience the most useful general purpose edge for my use.

The main thing for me is to get rid of the hard shoulder/discontinuity between the edge bevel and the blade face - since I have to do that I "roll" my sharpening motion and make the transition bevel convex.

My final edge is usually done with some fine grit V-hone crock-sticks, and then I strop these days on cardboard.

Here's a post about (semi-)convexing of my EDC SAK -

Convexed Edge

EDIT to Add-

One of the very best articles on Sharpening I've seen is this classic -

How to Sharpen a Knife - by Dee Griffin, DVM



--
Vincent
http://UnknownVT2006.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
You might want to buy more of those $7 Mountain Quest knives, if you like them. From what I have read about the imminent demise of the US Dollar, that price might soon be a thing of the past.

According to some the countries that have been propping up the dollar by buying US securities are about to switch to other investments. They say the dollar is headed for a big fall, and cheap imports will be a thing of the past.

So get your $7 knives while you can. If the predictions are correct, $7 knives are about to become as rare as sub $2 a gallon gas.
 
Jeff's sharpening technique in general is well described here :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3461454&postcount=34

It is similar to Goddard's technique who also recommends a large deburring angle, as does Cook (for axes), however Clark recommends going back and recreating the origional edge while the other two leave the more obtuse micro-bevel on the edge.

I think you can argue that a convex profile is optimal because it more closely matches the force distribution of a media on an edge during cutting. The force is much higher at the edge and falls off rapidly above it, this is how a convex edge behaves. I find that personally the best convex profile for small cutting knives is one that I create naturally by hand when low honing as Alvin described on rec.knives.

I assumed I was actually creating a flat 5-6 degree bevel by honing flat to the stone but it turns out for several reasons that this is actually a very light convex bevel which runs from around 5 in the primary to about 10 in the final very edge (1/16" or so depending on the knife and the stone).

On large chopping knives the bevels are much thicker and the convex nature is visible by eye, my SHBM is like this, as are my axes.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It is similar to Goddard's technique who also recommends a large deburring angle, as does Cook (for axes), however Clark recommends going back and recreating the origional edge while the other two leave the more obtuse micro-bevel on the edge.
Click to expand...

hmmmm..... seems that's what I am doing simply by accident/ignorance:o

when cutting in what I call the transition bevel (I try to get a zero bevel to the blade face) and roll my stroke to get the convexed edge eventually I get to the actual cutting edge and I'm feeling and inspecting (30x illuminated microscope) for the burr - when I get it on one side I make sure I get it on the other - that way I know I have reprofiled right to the edge.

At this point I do not know what the real edge angle is - but it's likely to be pretty actute (over sharp). I actually try to knock the burr off while still doing the freehand honing on the flat "stone" (fine diamond) - then finish off on V-hone crock-sticks - these are pretty old so are set at about 45deg total inclusive angle (or about 23deg per side) this normally completely deburrs the edges.

The possible exception is probably very soft (blade) steels - like this $7 EDC - where there's the danger of rollover - and I did see this - often this is due to me trying not to remove too much material at the actual edge and only just forming a burr - so there is still some "solid" and thickish material at the burr - due to the softer steel - so it will rollover.

If I see/feel this - I just go right back to the fine diamond flat stones and do the rolling motions strokes and make sure the rollover burr is gone - then use the V-hone again - normally this then gives me a clean edge - both by feel and magnified visual inspection.

Many thanks for the discussion information - I am now able to rationalize the reasons why I do certain things. :o


Cliff Stamp said:
I think you can argue that a convex profile is optimal because it more closely matches the force distribution of a media on an edge during cutting. The force is much higher at the edge and falls off rapidly above it, this is how a convex edge behaves. I find that personally the best convex profile for small cutting knives is one that I create naturally by hand when low honing as Alvin described on rec.knives.
Click to expand...

Alvin! - love the guy - we often butt heads (only in the friendliest way) - and "butt head" is the operative word :p

I have found for my use a flat ground blade face with a convexed zero bevel edge seems to cut well for me - my EDC SAK has such a profile/edge and is one of my cutting-est knives.

Although there are real exceptions - the Kershaw/Ken Onion LEEK where the hollow ground blade does the very common "unforgivable" thickening toward the edge - but that blade cuts through cheddar cheese like nobody's business - and did as well as an Opinel #8 (sharp convex) through a raw sweet potato - this is all due to the wedging action where the hard shoulder wedges and "splits" the material.

The other is a David Boye BDS (steel) folder - I have one sample with an Eagle Wing and it is sharp! to the point of almost being "magical" - it is also hollow ground - BUT it does not thicken toward the edge - so it is very thin behind the edge - hence its sharpness and cutting ability. Strangely enough it doesn't seem to be as badly affected when cutting self-adhesive tape - tape will stick to the blade if deliberately done - but when cutting through tape there's less crud left on the blade - I think it's due to the hollow ground profile without a prominent shoulder..... but that's just a guess.

--
Vincent
http://UnknownVT2006.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
UnknownVT said:
...the Kershaw/Ken Onion LEEK where the hollow ground blade does the very common "unforgivable" thickening toward the edge - but that blade cuts through cheddar cheese like nobody's business - and did as well as an Opinel #8 (sharp convex) through a raw sweet potato - this is all due to the wedging action where the hard shoulder wedges and "splits" the material.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting observation, as always the more detail you look at anything the more complicated it gets. The first time I noticed this was using a really cheap kitchen knife that was really thin, stamped stainless. I was expecting it to perform really well, but instead it bound on potatos and thicker blades actually out cut it (measured the force, plus time wise). As you noted there is a tradeoff of splitting vs binding which means you can lose cutting performance if you reduce the profile in some ways. This isn't the same on all material either so while in general the rule of lower cross sections hold, it is quickly violated when you start adjusting geometries. I have blades which are exceptional wood carvers for example, but very poor cutting thick cardboard, and the reverse is also true and I also have blades which do very well and very poorly at both.

-Cliff
 
If it lasts you a couple of months, then you got your money's worth. Brands like Spyderco or even Byrd though will last you years, so you get a better deal with those.
 
interim report.....

"so far, so good" -
like the man said going past every window -
falling down the Empire State Building :p :D

This cheapo $7 knife is holding up quite well - I've cut through several normal types of things that an EDC gets used for including a few blister clam packs. I always learn patience and only cut these while calmly sitting back in my car - with the knife point away from my fingers and body. Edge shows no signs of wear or damage - but I wouldn't expect it even for soft'ish steel - as my cutting duties would be considered "lite".

The action is still very good.

However, while testing for any play - there was none, side-to-side or vertical - I noticed the pivot screw was loose - so I was surprised there was no side-to-side play - I think this may be due to the screws holding the scales being tight. Anyway I tightened the pivot screw to finger tight - probably just a shade tighter than I did initially - and will see if it loosens in time - if it does I'll have to use some LocTite.

Just as a side note of interest - I was in Dick's Sporting Goods the other day - and noticed that they hung the knife I returned back on the peg - I know for certain because the package has the security warning label missing - removed by me - the knife was closed in the package and looking at the back and the clip - the lower screw for the clip was missing (the threads for the hole in the scale was stripped)....... hmmmmmm...:eek:

--
Vincent
http://UnknownVT2006.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
It's now one month since I got the current exchanged $7 EDC.....
and all is well.

I took the advice of Pocketknife and used blue LocTite on the threads of the lower pocket clip screw (the one that had stripped the threads in the scales previously) - the clip is also fine - shows no signs of distress or budging.

I have obviously fiddled more with the blade - basically trying to improve on my initial job of convexing the edge - all this is obviously diminishing returns - but the knife really cuts like a motherf* - obvious EDC type duties - paper, cardboard, packaging - dreaded blisterpacks - again shows no flats or signs of dulling - from all the use - I have not had to retouch/sharpen after the fiddling.

Being pointier than my EDC SAK - this $7 EDC makes the first "puncture" cut on the edge of blister packs much more easily. I have always been cautious with these nasty packaging - waiting until I'm back in my car calmly sitting down - and I've always aimed my knife point and edge away from my fingers, thigh etc. before cutting......

Anyway for $7 - after the initial hiccup - this cheapy seems to be holding up well - with not much to complain about and a lot to actually like - well I'm obviously biassed - otherwise I wouldn't have bought it in the first place.......

--
Vincent
http://UnknownVT2006.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT2005.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
 
You can cut a lot with low end steel properly ground, you can't do a lot of extended work, but few people likely need the ability to cut many meters of thick cardboard without sharpening in a small edc.

-Cliff
 
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