>>> 7" Test results are in! <<<

Arnistador · Oct 25, 1999

While Mr. Turber did put together one of the most comprehensive personal evaluations of 7" fixed blades available on the Internet, we must remember that he does have at least some financial interest in the way the evaluations turn out, backorders or whatever they may be. This is not a comment on Mr. Turber's personal character, just a statement of fact, and a reason why I would not pretend to put together a truly "objective" evaluation, as I would not be able to, given my own personal experiences with different makers of knives, Kevin McClung, Lynn Thompson, and others included.

A few points I have contention with:

Sheath score: Didn't I just finish reading about how the Kydex sheath included with the Busse Basic #9 was "highly disappointing"? Is this the same sheath style that is included with the #7 used in the test. More importantly, why are there no photos of each sheath along with closeups so that our dear readers can judge for themselves?

Chopping: How about photos of the chopping process? Mad Dog chipping? How about closeup photos of the resulting blades and wood (esp. after initial chops)? (My own personal experience with MD's are excellent: with my ATAK, I've chopped steel table legs, shelving, etc., a la Mick Strider without any chipping.)

Drop Test: On what basis did they score? Again, how about pictures of resulting "blunted tip" on certain knives? Did the blunting affect gross performance of the knives at all?

Cardboard Test: This is probably the best test of edge holding, and if Mr. Turber is right, the modified INFI steel is definitely something to keep an eye on! Again, pictures of the setup and some of the resultant cuts would have been helpful.

I would have liked to have seen a corrosion resistance test, prying test, etc., Weighting of the scores seemed rather arbitrary, but I suppose that is probably impossible to eliminate as many of the tests require subjective interpretation.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com/ewc2000
Edged Weapons Conference 2000

Mike Turber · Oct 25, 1999

I understand your concern but I assure you (like that will make a difference

) that the results are exactly as stated.

It would not make a difference who did the test as all tests are always subject to ridicule and I am no different in this regard. Heck even Cliff gets his fair share of it too. Oh well... And since you and I do not know each other personally, you can not lay claim to my mental capacity in regards to making a fair judgment. Want to find out how impartial I am?

Think of this.

The Camillus got ripped and mainly because of the poor factory edge. We host the Camillus forum. Will Fennel is a very good personal friend of mine. It anyone has a beef it would be him. He did call me this morning and we discussed the results of my test.

Want to know what Camillus is doing?

Because of my test they are reviewing how they sharpen the knives. This speaks volumes of how they handle a situation like this. They could of just bitched that I was not fair, or whatever, but Will knows me and he understands what I was up against.

Even though the knife I have is 100% Mil Spec and none of the others are. No big deal as I plan to put a better edge on the knife and test it again. I just wanted my test to be a factory fresh test and the Camillus was the cheapest of the bunch other than the UC-POS. Keep in mind it came with a Kydex sheath too! If I had to pic the best buy the Camillus would probably get the nod.

I will take pics of the blades and the sheaths for all to see . Anyone in this area is welcome to stop on by anytime and check them out for yourselves.

Sheath score: Didn't I just finish reading about how the Kydex sheath included with the Busse Basic #9 was "highly disappointing"? Is this the same sheath style that is included with the #7 used in the test. More importantly, why are there no photos of each sheath along with close ups so that our dear readers can judge for themselves?

As far as my sheath review I made it clear that is was not part of the overall score. And yes the Busse sheath is better than the MAD DOG sheath I have. As far as the others are concerned I like Kydex sheaths and that is why I had to remove this part of the test from the score because I could not be impartial.

Chopping: How about photos of the chopping process? Mad Dog chipping? How about close up photos of the resulting blades and wood (esp. after initial chops)? (My own personal experience with MD's are excellent: with my ATAK, I've chopped steel table legs, shelving, etc., a la Mick Strider without any chipping.)

I will take a extreme closeup of the edge of the ATAK.
You actually chop steel table legs with your ATAK? Are you serious? No damage? Are you a member of the church or tactical truth

?

Drop Test: On what basis did they score? Again, how about pictures of resulting "blunted tip" on certain knives? Did the blunting affect gross performance of the knives at all?

The basis of the scoring was how much damage was done. Since none of them broke the testing in that category was hard and that is way most of the knives had very similar scores. So even if you through out this test the results would be nearly the same. No the blunting obviously did not effect the performance of the knives as I had already done 5 stabs in the spruce with each knife. I did not post the results of this test as each knife did just fine and I could not really tell a difference. The Cold Steel seemed to go a bit deeper but it was also the heaviest knife. So I simply through this whole test out.

Cardboard Test: This is probably the best test of edge holding, and if Mr. Turber is right, the modified INFI steel is definitely something to keep an eye on! Again, pictures of the setup and some of the resultant cuts would have been helpful.

The set up is simple and I will try to snap a pic. The setup is as I explained. I mount the blade on a 45 degree angle and then pull it through the cardboard. Pretty simple actually.

These tests are just that, tests. Nothing more nothing less. If a knife fails one of my tests then it fails. I could really care less who makes it.

In one of my previous tests I found a problem with the Benchamde model 840 Ascent. It failed the AT Barr whack the spine test. Benchmade checked their stock and corrected the problem. I just recently checked a batch of 840's and they are all fine.

Benchmade did the right thing and so did Camillus. I will have many test in the future and I will post all the results. Unlike the magazines you will hear the good, the bad and the ugly.

Want to know why you never read a bad review in the rags? Because they never publish them. They have gotten better recently and they do mention a few more problems with knives but overall they will never rip a new one in anyone. I will!

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
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The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 25 October 1999).]

Walt Welch · Oct 25, 1999

Mike; congratulations on a great testing job!
You really worked your fingers to the bone to compare 7" knives for the forumites. A few comments:

To the person(s) who might think that Mike having a financial interest in one or more of the knives tested would affect the results; I have just one word: NOT!

Mike; one teensy thing about methodology; you said you used a 30 degree angle in the cardboard test, but later on, in the forum you said the angle was 45 degrees. It doesn't seem to make any real difference, but you may wish to specify the correct angle.

I am surprised that the MD ATAK failed the chopping test; one event at KN '98 was to have the contestants chop (completely) midway through a 24" long 2" x 4" stud, and then split the resulting two pieces into 12 individual pieces each, simulating kindling wood preparation. Not all knives used were MD's, but all the contestants made it through the 2" x 4" stud. This was a timed event, so perhaps the contestents' zeal made up for the shortcomings of their knives.

I would agree with the posters who said you should sharpen the knives. While it is useful to see how the knives perform with their factory edge, if the edge is unsatisfactory, then sharpening it correctly will give a better idea how the knives will perform with an edge which has been correctly sharpened by the new owner (which is what will undoubtedly happen if the owner is dissatisfied with the factory edge).

However, the above are mere quibbles. I thank you for such an informative test, and congratulate you on conceiving such an insightful testing methodology.

BTW, I sent off your KNIFEGNUGEN t-shirts yesterday. Enjoy. Walt

Mike Turber · Oct 25, 1999

I got the shirts today Walt and the 2 Photons! Many thanks my friend.

They have Charter Member on the sleeve. WOW I am a charter member of the Church of Tactical Truth! Yahoooooo!!!!!! I will take some pics tomorrow of me in my new MD Shirt!

As for the test I really did chop like hell with the Mad Dog. It did better than most but the ATAK is just no chopper. No big deal as it is most certainly the fighter it was designed to be. A different test would most likely yeild far different results. Got a good email from Jim March on some future tests I should perform for fighters. THANKS JIM!

The angle was 30%. Sorry about that

The Mad Dog did have the best "FEEL" for it's grip. Not when chopping but while you hold it you just want to stab and slash the **** out of something. Pick up a Busse and you want to chop the **** out of something. They are different knives and are really not in the same category of knives. If Jerry makes a fighter though the INFI will be some tough stuff to beat!

The edge of the Mad Dog has several very small chips in it. Some are more like dents on close inspection. The Spruce is toughter than pine and the edge on the Busse is completely different. This may be the difference between the two and maybe the ATAK is harder at the edge than the Busse.

I know Kevin got to see a Busse at K'Nugen '99. I hope he played with it some. Now an ATAK made of INFI would be sweeeetttttt!

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

Shrike9 · Oct 25, 1999

Arnistador,
I'm the one grumbling and groaning about the sheath that comes with the Busse Basic. While it's a good design for civilian use in hunting/camping/puttsing around in the woods for me I'm in the USAF (Security Forces)and extremly hard on my knives and sheaths. I had the plastic clip on a M9 Bayonet break at somthing like -60F and on another knife had the kydex start to sofften and deform (finger pressure) at +130F in Saudi. My knife (Randall #14) has gone swimming in rice paddies and helped dig fox holes among other somewhat worse tortures. Hopefully I've got that phase of my career behind me (Ya right) but if/when I get deployed again to someplace less than frendily I want the best knife/tool I can afford along with a top quality sheath.

I've had a Saffariland Tac holster in these same places and never broken the plastic clip and the kydex never started to sofften up.

Personally I'd like to see the narrow leg band made out of elastic and about 1 1/2 times as wide, along with the same plastic clip Saffariland uses. The sheath needs to be alligned with the knife as the locking hole in the sheath does not line up with the knife very well. Mabey a thicker piece of Kydex for the sheath?? I know less than nothing about the design and manufacture of Kydex products, just what I've seen in real world conditions.

Remember this is just MY opnion using MY military background as a sounding board.

Somewhere on this site their is a good picture of the sheath, just do not know where.

Personally I loved the review as impartial as it was and can't wait for the next one with the Basic #9 If it's as good as I'm hopping it will be then the Randall will be moving into retirement with the Basic #9 taking over deployments. I'm just wating for Mike to destroy or try to destroy one first

knnut · Oct 25, 1999

Mike,how did the coating(on the knives that had it) hold up?

Mike Turber · Oct 25, 1999

Great Question!

So far all the coatings held up fine!

Thanks for the clarifaction Shrike9.

Maybe I should devise a test for sheaths. Like put them in a freezer for 48 hours and then hit them with a hammer. Then put them on the dash of my black car with black interior in the Florida sun and do the same. Any other ideas?

------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
www.wowinc.com
www.gigandknives.com
www.macedirect.com
www.dragon-forge.com
The above sites are pure shamless plugs!

Chief · Oct 25, 1999

yes, add a Strider and a Reeves to the test...

Arnistador · Oct 26, 1999

>And since you and I do not know each other >personally, you can not lay claim to >my mental capacity in regards to making a >fair judgment

I was not laying claim to anything regarding your character or judgement. Just stating that there is or was something that was potentially a financial or personal interest in the way the review turned out. It has nothing to do with you personally, and I would not venture to comment on your character, as it may very well turn out that you have Godlike virtue (for all I know.)

As far as pics of the sheaths, that'd be great! And I must have missed the part about the sheaths not being part of the overall score. My bad.

RE: chopping steel table legs. I don't chop them in half, as I like to have my tables stand on legs. However, I have hacked into steel table legs with multiple strikes just to see how it would hold up (since Mick Strider did that to one of his own at a show I was displaying at.) The ATAK came out unscathed and hair shaving sharp. Am I a member of the CTT? I admit I am a distributor, so you may take that into consideration when evaluating whatever I say. Whether or not I blindly follow what Kevin has to say, I do not. My partner and I, along with various professional operators (LASO SEB, HBPD SWAT, OC Sheriff's Dept, etc.,) T&E Kevin's prototypes and let him know what we think.

I know the problems with knife/gun/gear rags and I'm afraid it's the nature of the beast. I just wanted to bring to light some of the issues I had with the testing. This is in no way faulting your work; no series of test can truly be complete and totally bias-free, though we may strive to do so. (Again, this is why I will not be reviewing knives anytime soon as I would have to be able to endure the same scrutiny.)

Shrike9:

I agree with you on your Safariland. They make some of the very best duty gear and were among the first to utilize Kydex in holsters. I love the Safarilaminate material.

Tim
http://www.streetpro.com/ewc2000
Edged Weapons Conference 2000

JoHnYKwSt · Oct 26, 1999

Mike,

Thanks for taking the time and money to perform the tests, much appreciated.

While it would have been nice if you would have shaprened the edges before testing; I understand sharpening 8 large fixed blades are a real pain. Also companys really need to make their knives sharp when it leaves the factory. Some of us like to buy knives to collect, and a nice sharp factory edge is important.

I would also like to see a Reeves and Strider added to the test.

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Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

armlok · Oct 26, 1999

Mike,
I find it very surprising about the ATAK, I have a MAKO 6 in. and it cut a 2x4 twice and still scraped hairI used the belly for my test, I also split an axis deer pelvic bone, chopped it's head off and basically dismantled it on this years lottery hunt. I did a similar test w/ my Micro-Mirage on a 1/2 pine and cuta v notch about a inch deep. I like to know what my gear can do

Hey shrike! My model 14 is my favorite LBE knife, it also makes osifers nnneeeerrvavaveerous

Cliff Stamp · Oct 26, 1999

Mike, I appreciate the offer, however I don't do preset tests as there is far too much potential for indroducing a bias.

[Camillus]

Because of my test they are reviewing how they sharpen the knives.

I never had much interested in them, but after reading that I am turned around somewhat, strong move by Camillus there.

No big deal as I plan to put a better edge on the knife and test it again.

That would be very valuable information. While it is interesting to see just how much of an effect a poor sharpening can have, it would be very useful to evaluate the full ability of the blade.

One other suggestion, cut some serrations into the blades and test them out as well. You also might want to consider offering this as a feature available on any blades bought through the store. Partially serrated Basics might appeal to some in particular.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 26 October 1999).]

m · Oct 26, 1999

Great test, mr. Turber.
If it isn't to much trouble could you possibly include a snapout test to further test tip strength and a prying test,maybe one test with the blade an inch into whatever you want to pry and one with the blade somewhere around 4-5 inches into whatever you were prying?I know you are a busy man and this is in no way a criticism of the test but I think these tests give important information about a knife that is going to be used hard.You could use a weight or varying weights on the pry test if you wanted but you wouldn't have to.Thanks again for a job well done.
m

RMLamey · Oct 26, 1999

Please let me know when the 9" test is. I have my sights set on that #1 spot!!!!!!!

Lets try and get more makers to submit knives also.

;-)

Matt.

db · Oct 26, 1999

I also think a report on how they sharpen back up would be very important. I would even offer to do it, but it may take me a little more time than people would like. I also wonder if the same edge could be put on all the knives? Isn't Busse have its own style, flat on one side and convex on the other. Does this make a differents in the performance? What do the sharpening pros think?

>>> 7" Test results are in! <<<

Chief Master Sergeant USAF (ret) 1975-2000