80crv2 vs. 52100 (80crv2 seems almost as good as 3v!)

[Blain]

Have been looking into 80crv2 as a knife steel lately, and it seems very impressive. It is even tougher than 5160 (which is already one of the toughest steels out there) and has much better edge holding and wear resistance on top of it! It almost seems like a 3v light, or a poor man's 3v! It is also cheap and easy to heat treat. Surprisingly, not many companies or makers seem to be using this steel. Most likely because not many people out there know about it.

I was wondering how it compares to 52100, which is also considered one of the top knife steels out there. 52100 is one of the best carbon steels out there for wear resistance and it is also very tough. If 80crv2 is tougher than 5160 (which in itself is tougher than 52100) with much better wear resistance, that would make it a superior steel to 52100 for most big choppers, would it not?

Anyone who has had experience with both of these steels care to chime in?

 

[shinyedges]

I've had Winklers in all 3 steels you speak of, between 52-100 and 80crv2 in the toughness department I think it depends on many factors.. Thickness, hardness, geometry just to name a few. But all things being equal IMO 80crv2 doesn't have any BIG gap in edge retention over 52-100, but possibly is more impact resistant and or more able to be bent rather than broken. That being said.. Either steel could be made to perform better than the other.

I'm not a maker( yet) and everything I said is my opinion.

 

[Thomas Linton]

You making a knife? If not, it's just another raw material, like a certain baking flour. It's the maker who creates the final product, good, bad or indifferent.

AKA AISI L2 "saw steel"

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/860975-80CRV2-Prototype-Test-Blade

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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1207578-TTT-chart-for-80CrV2

I guess I was way off wasn't I? Because I have always heard that 80CrV2 is the same as 1080+. It isn't. Go to AKS and look at 1080+. It is indeed just 1080 with a touch of Cr and a touch of V. However, calling up Zknives chart and plugging in 80CrV2, there are actually two different 80CrV2 listed, one german one english and they are fairly different than 1080+. Even those two formulas given for 80CrV2 are quite different from each other. The Cr is twice in the Eng version than the German. 1080+ is also showing NO nickel, NO moly, which 80CrV2 does have. Apparently the Eng version can have carbon from .45 all the way to 1. I guess the best thing, always, is to know EXACTLY what the chemical formula is. I sure learned a lesson here, check and verify yourself.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1157623-80CRV2-against-D2-steel

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1126870-Any-experience-with-80CrV2

 

[Blain]

Obviously blade geometry, hardness, etc. all play a part but in general, if we have a cheap knife steel that is better than 52100, and even easier to heat treat, people should know about it and be using it a lot more often!

I'd love to see how 80crv2 stacks up compared to 3v in terms of toughness / wear resistance. Obviously, 3v will have the edge as far in regards to stain resistance, but 80crv2 isn't too bad. It is more corrosion resistant than 52100!

 

[shqxk]

80CRV2 is one of the better low alloy carbon steel out there. Since it was eutectoid, it is much forgiving and has wider range to forge and heat treat compare to hypereutectoid like 52100 or CFV.

52100 is ball bearing steel which most of this type of steel, such as Bohler's R100 or Carpenter stuff, are made via higher quality process, vacuum induction melted and vacuum arc remelted (VIM-VAR) it will has much cleaner structure, lower impurity and finer grain structure and most conventional melted steel.

CPM3V is semi-high alloy powdered steel, it will not hold candle to 52100 or 80CRV2 when it come to fine edge stability.
But 3V would win every low alloy carbon steel on lateral strength capability and resistance to cutting through abrasive stuff like cardboard.

Dan Keffeler ever made a 30" katana from this stuff with very thin edge like 0.012" and chopped down like hundreds of tree with zero issue...

If you do the same thing with 52100 or 80CRV2 with none selective hardening(clay, edge quench or gas torch the edge) or selective tempering (drawing back the spine)
I highly doubt if it could pass that kind of test..

 

[james terrio]

If you're interested in the "80" series of carbon steels (1075, 1080, 1084, 80CRV2, etc), especially as compared to CPM-3V, I invite you to seek out the datasheets for all of them and note what they all have in common.

Which is, carbon levels no higher than about .8 %. Certainly no higher than 1%. Without getting too technical-geeky about it, steels like that are very-well-suited to both very high toughness and relatively high hardness.

It's the maker who creates the final product, good, bad or indifferent.

Well... sort of, and I see your point, but not always. Any "maker" can start with good materials and ruin them. NO maker (or heat-treater) can start with unsuitable materials and make them better than their original potential.

 

[Blain]

If you're interested in the "80" series of carbon steels (1075, 1080, 1084, 80CRV2, etc), especially as compared to CPM-3V, I invite you to seek out the datasheets for all of them and note what they all have in common.

Which is, carbon levels no higher than about .8 %. Certainly no higher than 1%. Without getting too technical-geeky about it, steels like that are very-well-suited to both very high toughness and relatively high hardness.



Well... sort of, and I see your point, but not always. Any "maker" can start with good materials and ruin them. NO maker (or heat-treater) can start with unsuitable materials and make them better than their original potential.

I agree with you exactly on the good material's point. The quality of materials is independent of the maker, and higher quality materials should be preferred.

I disagree with you comparing 80crv2 alloy to simple carbon steels. That would be like comparing 52100 to 1095, they are completely different aside from carbon content.

 

[Thomas Linton]

All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

 

[fsatsil]

I don't have any experience with 80CrV2 but on paper it looks a lot like a lower carbon 1095CV. Whats so special about it?

 

[james terrio]

I don't have any experience with 80CrV2 but on paper it looks a lot like a lower carbon 1095CV. Whats so special about it?

Structure. Do not be fooled by the notion that more carbon is always better.

I disagree with you comparing 80crv2 alloy to simple carbon steels.

What makes them both tough is exactly the same structure. The only differences are carbide content (quite small, actually) and more importantly, different HT response due to alloying elements... Neither of them (nor 1095 or 52100 or O1) come anywhere close to what we would call today, "high-alloy" , "complex" steels. So yeah, 1080 and 80CRV2 definitely belong in the same "class". Anyone who tells you differently is blowing smoke at you.

Read Cashen's posts (or even wikipedia entries) about hypo- vs. hyper-eutectoid alloys and you'll see what I mean. The keywords to watch for are "lamellar" and "plate" martensite structure, and to some extent, pearlite structure.

 

[fsatsil]

Structure. Do not be fooled by the notion that more carbon is always better

I wasn't saying that more carbon makes 1095CV better I just don't see anything about 80CrV2 that would lead me to believe that is at all comparable to 3V?

 

[Cobalt]

If you do the same thing with 52100 or 80CRV2 with none selective hardening(clay, edge quench or gas torch the edge) or selective tempering (drawing back the spine)
I highly doubt if it could pass that kind of test..

When it comes to 52100, how do you know this? Did you test, or do you have proof tests of this?

 

[Blain]

I wasn't saying that more carbon makes 1095CV better I just don't see anything about 80CrV2 that would lead me to believe that is at all comparable to 3V?

User accounts of performance. Reports that it is tougher than 5160 but holds an edge almost as good as 52100.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Users account relate hours of chopping hardwood with the result that the edge of the knife use, made of Unobtanium, is still hair-poppin' sharp.

Links to tests of 80CrV2 tested against 3V?

Comparisons to 5160 and 52100 seem perhaps off the mark if the comparison is to 3V.

 

[shqxk]

When it comes to 52100, how do you know this? Did you test, or do you have proof tests of this?

This is a waki made of 52100 with 6 step normalizing in precise digital control gas oven, double quench at 1500F in canola oil and triple temper at 400F. Gas torched to draw back the spine 2 time.


0.014" thick behind the edge. Can easily chopped through any 2x4 with zero damage.

We have done numerous test with 52100 to find the most suitable heat treat protocol to each of blade application in our use.

Simple to low-alloy carbon steel like 52100, O1, W2, 5160, L6 etc. with no selective hardening would have much higher risk to fail when it come to high impact application like wood wakizashi or very large camp, Those selective hardening/tempering also vastly improve shock absorption.

The reason for all of this are pretty simple metallurgy... 950F tempered martensite of these steel are much tougher, resilient and softer than 400F tempered martensite.

Pearlite structure also the same story but not as strong as spring tempered martensite.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El-CWPcjIJs

 

[Cobalt]

So you are saying that 52100 had no damage? Then it could pass the test.

 

[shqxk]

Yes, it has zero visible damage and can slice print paper clean.

It won't be as strong or as tough as high alloy mono-hardened steel like INFI or 3V but in my expereince it take sharper edge due to finer grain and hold an edge a bit longer.

Our cutting competition that we arranged 2 to 3 times each years is one of the best testing field for us. Knifemaker try to find their best steel with their best heat treat recipe to withstand the thinner edge.

I and my friend found that thermal cycled heat treat 52100 along with CPM-M4 (Peter heat treat) is one of the best edge holding steel.

 

[Cobalt]

Yes, it has zero visible damage and can slice print paper clean.

It won't be as strong or as tough as high alloy mono-hardened steel like INFI or 3V but in my expereince it take sharper edge due to finer grain and hold an edge a bit longer.

Our cutting competition that we arranged 2 to 3 times each years is one of the best testing field for us. Knifemaker try to find their best steel with their best heat treat recipe to withstand the thinner edge.

I and my friend found that thermal cycled heat treat 52100 along with CPM-M4 (Peter heat treat) is one of the best edge holding steel.

Alright, so you have great edge holding and when differentially HT'd is as tough as any steel needs to be, what more can you ask for. I know that today we like super steels(my term) like 3V, INFI and some others, but well done 52100 can do it all and is one of the preferred custom steels.

 

[Blain]

Alright, so you have great edge holding and when differentially HT'd is as tough as any steel needs to be, what more can you ask for. I know that today we like super steels(my term) like 3V, INFI and some others, but well done 52100 can do it all and is one of the preferred custom steels.

Amen to that! Though I think one of the problems with 52100 is that it can be especially difficult to heat treat correctly. Bluntcut, Ed Fowler, and others are able to squeeze the most out of this steel with their intricate heat treatments, however, I've read that it has to be done exactly correct or you loose a lot of the steel's performance.

On the other hand, 80crv2 is a steel that matches up very well with even the best heat treated 52100. However, it is much easier to heat treat and more forgiving of mistakes where as 52100's optimum performance is the result of a meticulous and careful heat treatment that must be pulled off perfectly.

 

[Cobalt]

True, but that only gives more credence to knife makers who can do it successfully.