9cr18mo initial impression

Sal Glesser said:
I don't think the steel-heads are complaining.
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We're not!

Sal Glesser said:
I believe they appreciate our efforts to do this project and they know enough about steel and manufacturing to guess the difficulty involved.
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We do!

Sal Glesser said:
Their interest is also "in the stuff" and not in the fit & finish. If I am wrong in this, then we're pissin' in the wind and should probably stop.
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You're not wrong! Y'all are doing an awesome job. I couldn't be happier.

Gordon
 
gaj999 said:
You can use the holes to lock down the cord. The lanyard hole in particular is useful as the curve of the tang is convex at that point and that's where it wants to slip. Getting the cord wrapped all the way to the end of the tang doesn't serve any practical purpose, it would only be for looks.

Gordon
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Yeah, found a good youtube video on wrapping it and it worked well. Thanks
 
I don't think the steel-heads are complaining. I believe they appreciate our efforts to do this project and they know enough about steel and manufacturing to guess the difficulty involved. Their interest is also "in the stuff" and not in the fit & finish. If I am wrong in this, then we're pissin' in the wind and should probably stop
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Sal, I believe my feelings about the project have been apparent since you first gave thought to the project on the forums. I am still amazed you are doing it, and hope to see it continue.

It seems like there has been an increase in complaints though. My guess is these aren't true steel junkies but guys that have just heard about this wonderful project that you have started by reading posts on the forums. The complaints by and large aren't real knowledgeable and show more than just us steel heads are buying mules.

Do it as long as it's not too much of a problem. I'll keep buying at least one of every run, and more when possible.

You have already done more in this regard than anyone else ever has by far. Thank you very much for that.

Indeed if you look you see another company has a mule like knife in their catalog in their base steel now. That's flattering, eh? :) Joe
 
I think all that's happening is people go to the website and see the Mule and the Mule Seconds for sale. They buy a Mule and when they get it, it's not as pretty as they expected.

They think: "Did they send me a Second by mistake ?"

They come here and post: "Is my knife a reject ?"

Everyone says: "Nope, mine's the same; that's the way they are."

It's just a procedural thing.
 
if the mule team was about using "exotic" steels why not use cpm 3v or nitinol I mean s90v, m4, and zdp -189
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Some steels in the beginning are designed to 1) help refine the program and get it working, and 2), serve as a basis, or reference standard. All things you must have missed in earlier threads going back a couple years. I do admit this does come accross as snarky on your part. 3V is more common than CPM M4 at this time. It's been in use for years too, just as M4 and S90. Nitrol? It would be nice to grab some stuff. You have any ideas?

and maybe someone at spyderco should have at least used a zdp mule before they shipped as I don't COLLECT knives
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These knives were created in Seki by some of the best cutlers in the world. It was done to the recommend heat treat as given by Hitachi. The knife was more in line with a thousand dollar hand built sashimi knife given the treat and grind. Would you have cut your rope with a high priced, delicate chefs knife? In effect that's what it was. If you don't recognize that and give it the care accordingly that's your lack of understanding.

All the guys that bought these as cheap kit knives and then complained all over the boards when it was them over their head are in effect taking away the incentive for Sal to give his time, effort, and mostly companies well deserved reputation to a project designed for a curious group of "steel junkies", not everybody looking for a kickass EDC kit knife for cheap ( 1/10th the price of that handmade knife designed to slice through flesh without rupturing cells), not cut tough things. An EDC designed piece of ZDP would have a lowered RC, plus a thicker grind. Something you are obviously not even considering.

Please try to overlook what most people call my arrogance and look for the truth. All this complaining and bitching is endangering a project never designed for guys like you, to be honest. Joe/Raleigh
 
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BTW, 3V will likely be a future project if still available, and if there still is a mule team. There also should be a spyderco folder in 3V coming up in the 2010 timeframe.
 
The fit and finish on the latest Mule run doesn't bother me except for the few blades that aren't straight. A warped blank is more difficult to handle and the likelihood of having scale issues in the future is increased. That being said, I still think that the Mule Team program is currently the best thing being done by a production company. I appreciate that we're given the opportunity to compare these steals and do so at a really affordable price. :thumbup:



The Mastiff said:
These knives were created in Seki by some of the best cutlers in the world. It was done to the recommend heat treat as given by Hitachi. The knife was more in line with a thousand dollar hand built sashimi knife given the treat and grind. Would you have cut your rope with a high priced, delicate chefs knife? In effect that's what it was. If you don't recognize that and give it the care accordingly that's your lack of understanding
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In all fairness the remaining ZDP Mules got pulled from the Spyderco store because some were breaking on people before they even had a chance to use them.
 
In all fairness the remaining ZDP Mules got pulled from the Spyderco store because some were breaking on people before they even had a chance to use them.
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Yeah, being handled typically. Tom Krein sent some back due to having some break. Others did too. My guess is that a different method should be used when handling them from whatever way they did it. They could do whatever they want with them though, if it's theirs. Bitching to Sal about what essentially is a favor to us is what bothers me, not breaking knives or even returning them for replacement.

So these knives are designed for what and who exa
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Go back and research the threads


For your information I have cut the very same type of rope with my wifes kyocera shashimi and... surprise it didn't crack
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Your knife, your rope. Who cares? What does it prove other than you don't mind using the wrong tool for a job?

huh! the stretch zdp has an rc around 65 but I guess that knifes not meant to be an edc either.
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Mine make damn fine EDC's. I love them. If you're making a point it's going well under my head.

mastiff your holier then thou attitude is starting to irk me.
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And I should care because?
 
yablanowitz said:
The ZDP Mules were a rather special case. Apparently, the hardness used for folder blades was a bit too high for fixed blades. Quite a few of them have cracked or broken. The 9Cr18Mo Mule I've been using for the last week has no cracks or lines such as you describe and holds an edge fairly well. It isn't S90V, but it beats AUS-8 and at least gives my PE ATS-55 blades a run for their money.

I think Sal would be interested in seeing your 9Cr18Mo Mule. It is a pretty new steel for knives, and problems are more instructive for him than most field data.
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I don't want to sound like a jerk here, I think the world of Sal, Eric and Spyderco.
The only thing I do not understand is why would anyone be interested in a steel that "beats AUS-8 and at least gives ... ATS-55 a run for their money"?
That Sal may be interested for future China-made Byrd knives I can understand, but why would customers who have an M4 or S90V Mule want to downgrade?
I mean, there are so many new, exotic steels out there that I am craving to try out without breaking the bank that I cannot see myself buying a knife that uses a steel that barely compares to steels that are obsolete by today's standards.
 
It's a different steel for the Mule project. It's not $80, it's $20. The next Mule is sitting on the shelves waiting to go.

I don't see the problem here.
 
Perhaps this is getting a bit out of hand?

Mr. Bateman,

If you are "done" with the conversation after 11 posts, perhaps this is not your type of conversation? Disagreement often occurs on forums. We try to keep them civil and educational. Many of the posters here were in on the original development of the Mule Team project.

Why would you erase your posts?

The project is often dealing with materials not used before. Surprises are certainly possible. The ZDP Mule didn't work out. We pulled it to back to the drawing board. Spyderco, Hitachi and the maker are all involved in the project to determine the problem. If you are going to cut trails in new areas, you might run into unexpected problems.

The Chinese Mule is a test. We never said that we were going to use better and better steels each time. Just that we would try to use steels that our customers asked for as well as new offerings that have not been used or are not easily available. I don't remember many requests for Nitinol or if it's available. If it's a steel that enough of the steel-heads want, we can try to get it.

I'm sorry, but I do not have the time to field complaints about scratches on the blade of an experimental Mule Team. As I remember, your post seemed to imply that we somehow cheated you and that you didn't get your money's worth and that Spyderco quality was somehow bad. Hard to dicuss it when you erased your posts.

We have a group of aficianados that visit our forum whose depth of knowledge is exceptional. Respect is an important part of the dialogue. It's not about "being right" but about learning and sharing.

We have a pretty extensive testing lab. I have no problem buying Strider's, Busse's and Reeve's just to break them and test the steels. Foundries will often send us experimental steels to test for them. I get to test and play with steels. I am trying to extend that ability to others as well as get more information for us and the makers of the steels.

If you can curb your ego (hard for some of us, but possible ;)) and join our group as a participant in our Mule Team leanring project, you are most welcome.

sal
 
Sal, I think the basic problem here is, that instead of "discussion"("an exchange of views for the purpose of exploring a subject or deciding an issue") you propose, what almost anyone that comes to this forum with something else than praise encounters is often just "attack" by zealots (such as Mastiff) that for some reason either try to "defend" Spyderco (even if there is not a need for defense), somehow pretend they represent the official stance or attempt to enforce their point of view as the only one bearing validity.

Ironically, such attempts are usually disserviceable to company itself and dissuading from any present or future discussions.


As for negative comments on things which are not intended to be judged/observed/talked about in the "Mule team project" - I think it is unwise to start a project like this and do not expect that people will judge the product as it is, by their own standards and by their own requirements.
If you intended to value only some specific and preselected criteria, you would probably be better off finding group of people and present them with fixed sets of criteria to observe and evaluate (I am sure there are enough people that would volunteer) in blind trials.
But I think that because you choose the way you did, you were looking for something else, maybe an evaluation similar to such that all other Spyderco prodcuts are subjected to. In which case, threads like this would be useful to point out what poeple consider good and what they consider bad on the specific product itself (i.e. not only remarks on the steel itself, but also on manufacturing quality, location, price etc.).
 
Hi Huugh,

That's why we're still talking in the thread. Education is still the best direction when encounters occur. The Mule Team is a challenge to do, even for us. If their standards don't work for our product, I always try to give them more information. If my direction is not effective, then I must change. Education goes both ways.

We still have a very good customer service department that is there to deal with customer problems.

We don't have a problem with comments that are other than praise. Much of the discussion here is from feedback and many of our improvements are based on that feedback. Approach is also important when dealing with a group.

I think this situation is unique and would probably work better with more patience, both from the poster and regular posters.

sal
 
I don't have a mule of this steel...can't comment knowingly on it.
But i do recognize the patience of Job when i see it. Thanks again, Mr. Glesser. Please don't give up on pushing the envelope. Your efforts are appreciated.
I personally don't expect, and don't think it reasonable to expect, that every single one of your products (or anyone else) will suit me to absolute perfection. And it's probably just as well...too many of your products do suit me to perfection to match my budget already.
 
I haven't gotten this mule yet, have the others. I find the finish to be fine on the first 4. There is no fit, as they are a single piece of steel, and no sheath. As long as the surface imperfections don't cause stress risers, I see no problem there. But, if this Chinese manufacturer is kicking out twisted tangs and being pissy about things, I would drop them in a heartbeat.
 
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