A 200 Year Old Quill Knife

[Jack Black]

How about "PATENT" for the bottom line?

That was one of my thoughts too Not because I thought there was anything about the knife that could be registered as a patent, but after the period where cutlers marked their knives with a very simple symbol, they used words, which often seem to be almost picked at random, and don't necessarily make a lot of sense. Sometimes they're not even English words

At first I thought it read "insect", (bug), but quickly corrected myself to read "inset"!! (inlaid)

I bet you remember THESE inset scale knives though Charlie?

Great find Jack ! I won't muddy the waters with a guess on the tang stamp

Thanks Steve

Nice find Jack! What a treasure from the past. Looks pretty good for its age too.

Thanks Duane, maybe it was sitting up in the attic for a hundred years or so.... And then some stupid 'antiques dealer' came along with some sandpaper

Jonathan Hall, cutler 1795-1830, Sheffield. (But used the trademark I.Hall, maybe!)

Sometimes a guess causes a bell to ring, somewhere!!

I definitely thought of Jonathan Hall my friend, my second pick

 

[Jack Black]

It was hard to make a legible tang stamp on these tiny knives!!
These are obviously a bit later than Jacks knife!!
View attachment 1796039View attachment 1796040

Interesting to see that 'Patent' mark Charlie, couple of cool old knives there There's not a lot of space for a stamp on those old Quill Knives is there? Duncan Campbellclanman kindly gifted me this Joseph Rodgers Quill Knife, but it took a while before I worked out the manufacturer!

 

[herder]

Jack, that's a fine old knife and certainly rare to find such an example over 200 years as you say.
I did a light photoshop touch up on the blade stamp and wonder if it might read "J. FARR" (above "PATENT") for John Farr or one of the several possible Joseph Farr's?
Good score my friend!!!

 

[Jack Black]

Jack, that's a fine old knife and certainly rare to find such an example over 200 years as you say.
I did a light photoshop touch up on the blade stamp and wonder if it might read "J. FARR" (above "PATENT") for John Farr or one of the several possible Joseph Farr's?
Good score my friend!!!

View attachment 1796245

Thanks a lot for your help my friend, greatly appreciated

 

[Campbellclanman]

Absolutely intriguing Jack.
LOVE IT!

All our friends coming in to help and also show their wares.

That my friend is the heart of what and why we are all here, a hugely Traditional knife.
I simply Love these old Sheffield’s- and what a treat to see this latest treasure.
I am sure that if you knew anybody with the right equipment- an x-ray would define the edges of the stamp? I’m not too sure if that’s correct or not?
There have been some awfully close calls as to what that neat old stamping states.
You are right my friend - VERY little room - for Tang stamping

I could never decipher the stamping on that wee JR - but loved the Ivory and the super slender delicate actions that amazes one when considering the ages of these pieces.

 

[meako]

I think H herder is on to something with J. FARR
I like those richly hued scales...ox horn.?
Nice prize JB.
.

 

[Jack Black]

Absolutely intriguing Jack.
LOVE IT!

All our friends coming in to help and also show their wares.

That my friend is the heart of what and why we are all here, a hugely Traditional knife.
I simply Love these old Sheffield’s- and what a treat to see this latest treasure.
I am sure that if you knew anybody with the right equipment- an x-ray would define the edges of the stamp? I’m not too sure if that’s correct or not?
There have been some awfully close calls as to what that neat old stamping states.
You are right my friend - VERY little room - for Tang stamping

I could never decipher the stamping on that wee JR - but loved the Ivory and the super slender delicate actions that amazes one when considering the ages of these pieces.

Thanks Duncan, that's an intriguing thought. I'll have to look into it. At one time, Sheffield Museums were very helpful in terms of assessing old finds, I remember going to them with things as a boy. They seem to have an aversion to cutlery these days though, as you know Now that I think of it, I have a friend, who is a knife collector, and also in charge of some very advanced microscopes. I wonder if he could help?

I think H herder is on to something with J. FARR
I like those richly hued scales...ox horn.?
Nice prize JB.
.

Thanks Jon, I'm not sure, but either oxhorn or water buffalo I would have thought

 

[galvanic1882]

Here's one I picked up a while ago, love the horn on this one!

 

[Jack Black]

Here's one I picked up a whileView attachment 1797347View attachment 1797348View attachment 1797349 ago, love the horn on this one!

Wow! Very impressive, and it looks to be in very nice condition

This is also an old one, but unfortunately the Quill blade has been broken

 

[glennbad]

I'm kinda leaning with Neal on the J. Farr guess. Not sure if I'm seeing "Patent" though.

Here's a little quill knife I have.

 

[Jack Black]

I'm kinda leaning with Neal on the J. Farr guess. Not sure if I'm seeing "Patent" though.

Here's a little quill knife I have.
View attachment 1797603

Yeah, I think he nailed it Glenn I spent most of yesterday afternoon looking through old trade directories, and based on the dates, and assuming it's a Sheffield cutler, it's either the John Farr who worked at Ct 76, Rockingham Street, and lived at Mount Pisgah, or Joseph Farr of 37 Hereford Street, and later 14 Peacroft. So far I've been unable to find a mark assigned to either of them, but that'll hopefully clinch it

 

[herder]

Thanks for the votes of confidence meako, glennbad, and Jack.
I've looked over many rough stamps in the past and have found that even if a letter is not clear, the shape often is.
So you can narrow down a letter by determining if the general shape is a square, angle, or curve.

Some wonderful additions by waynorth, Jack, Galvanic, and glennbad. Thanks for the pictures guys!!!
Jack, where is the black and white picture from of the very old Barlow knives?

Here is a nice carved pearl handle Sheffield-made quill knife from the later 1800s by J. Dewsnap.

 

[Masterchief_SOCM]

Hi there,
I was directed over here after an amazing find.

Long story short, a woodchuck dug this up while trying to undermine the stone slab one of my old barns sits on.
Family emigrated from East Yorkshire mid-1800's and ended up in Michigan, so I'm guessing this may be an heirloom. Nobody left living to add any confirmation.

Any way, the knife looks exactly like the very first post pictures. Inset wood scales. Looks Oak or maybe Yew to me, hard to tell the grain with the age of this. One small piece of wood cracked, and one small chunk missing.
Fortunately the tang stamp is more readable.
So...on to the reveal. Any help adding more to the story would be gladly accepted.

 

[Jack Black]

Hi there,
I was directed over here after an amazing find.

Long story short, a woodchuck dug this up while trying to undermine the stone slab one of my old barns sits on.
Family emigrated from East Yorkshire mid-1800's and ended up in Michigan, so I'm guessing this may be an heirloom. Nobody left living to add any confirmation.

Any way, the knife looks exactly like the very first post pictures. Inset wood scales. Looks Oak or maybe Yew to me, hard to tell the grain with the age of this. One small piece of wood cracked, and one small chunk missing.
Fortunately the tang stamp is more readable.
So...on to the reveal. Any help adding more to the story would be gladly accepted.

Very interesting I'm reading:

W (Crown) R
. Brown
Cutler
To King
William IV

Am I missing an initial before 'Brown'? Can you show some photos of the knife itself please?

 

[Masterchief_SOCM]

I'm thinking the initial may have been accidentally sharpened/honed off? Part of the W in William is half missing / awfully close to the edge too.
You're spot on with the read. Same thing I came up with.
Definitely a "dot" before Brown. Can feel it grab the tiny balsa wood pick I used to get the dirt off.
More pics are coming. Soon. After more of the packed dirt is cleaned off. You can see some of the dirt at the very bottom of the picture.
That one was at 20x magnification to pick up the faint stamp detail.

 

[Jack Black]

I'm thinking the initial may have been accidentally sharpened/honed off? Part of the W in William is half missing / awfully close to the edge too.

More likely, the stamp was simply too large for the pattern. We see this quite often on hand-forged Quill Knives.

You're spot on with the read. Same thing I came up with.
Definitely a "dot" before Brown. Can feel it grab the tiny balsa wood pick I used to get the dirt off.
More pics are coming. Soon. After more of the packed dirt is cleaned off. You can see some of the dirt at the very bottom of the picture.
That one was at 20x magnification to pick up the faint stamp detail.

William IV reigned from 1830-1837, a pretty short reign, which gives us an unusually narrow dating window for a Sheffield knife, (though the stamp may have been used beyond that). Assuming, the knife is Sheffield-made, while Brown is a common name, only John Brown (1793-1876) had a Royal Warrant. According to Geoff Tweedale, he was listed in Pigot's Directory of Sheffield (1837) as a merchant and razor manufacturer to His Majesty, in Columbia Works, Suffolk Road, Sheffield. A number of libraries hold copies of commercial and trade directories of this type, and they can often be downloaded in PDF format, or browsed online. Columbia Works (later Columbia Place), was a large factory, covering 2000 square yards, built by Brown around 1835, and comprising workshops, cellars, showrooms, counting houses, and crucible steel furnaces. Brown applied to the Company of Cutlers in Hallamshire to register 'Columbia' and 'Royal' as trade marks, but the application was rejected due to trade mark technicalities. He was permitted to use an image of Saint George and dragon, and the Latin phrase 'NULLI SECUNDUS VIRTUIT'. Brown continued to expand, but as Tweedale again explains, he eventually overreached himself, becoming bankrupt in 1839, with all property and stock being sold at auction.

 

[Old Hunter]

Wonderful bit of history, I’m very much enjoying following your research and revelations. OH

 

[Jacques Mi]

Not only does Jack Black excel at finding knives but also at making an enjoyable story out of it.

 

[JM2]

Thanks Jack for a very interesting thread. The knife in your original post is neat. Inset scales is something I had seen but I didn't know what it was called. When I was a kid, I had a small knife that was the shape and size of a peanut, but it was marked camco, and it had inset scale mother of pearl I think. It may have been fake MOP. I don't really know what happened to it now. I probably swapped it off to a friend or something, like kids do.

 

[Jack Black]

Wonderful bit of history, I’m very much enjoying following your research and revelations. OH

Not only does Jack Black excel at finding knives but also at making an enjoyable story out of it.

Thanks Jack for a very interesting thread. The knife in your original post is neat. Inset scales is something I had seen but I didn't know what it was called. When I was a kid, I had a small knife that was the shape and size of a peanut, but it was marked camco, and it had inset scale mother of pearl I think. It may have been fake MOP. I don't really know what happened to it now. I probably swapped it off to a friend or something, like kids do.

Many thanks for the kind words gents, I'm hoping we're going to see more of the John Brown & Co knife