A couple more diagrams on axe balance.

[FortyTwoBlades]

So you could balance it at on single point and the bit would stay horizontal with the straight haft? Right?

It it weren't for that point being out in empty space, yeah. That's true with all objects, though. When suspended or supported at their center of gravity they'll hold their position without tilting/rolling.

Getting the darn wire to hold in place instead of slipping around on the bit was real fun. But you can see that it's being held supported by the wire at the center of gravity, and the tool is horizontal as a result. Then note how the handle and the wire are aligned for most of the length. Due to slight kinks in the wire it doesn't give quite so accurate a view of that line as the blue drop line did, but you can see it in action nicely this way.

 

[Woodcraft]

Now show the center of balance of the head. Off the haft. Then show the balance point on the straight handle of the head. Then explain how you think making the ax more bit heavy in relation to the plumb line was a good idea.
Because that looks to be exactly what you did with your handle.

 

[Woodcraft]

So you could balance it at on single point and the bit would stay horizontal with the straight haft? Right?

No. It is out of balance. Period. In more ways than one.

 

[Woodcraft]

It it weren't for that point being out in empty space, yeah. That's true with all objects, though. When suspended or supported at their center of gravity they'll hold their position without tilting/rolling.

Getting the darn wire to hold in place instead of slipping around on the bit was real fun. But you can see that it's being held supported by the wire at the center of gravity, and the tool is horizontal as a result. Then note how the handle and the wire are aligned for most of the length. Due to slight kinks in the wire it doesn't give quite so accurate a view of that line as the blue drop line did, but you can see it in action nicely this way.

If that is the center of gravity then that ax will balance on one finger, bit down.

 

[Steve Tall]

Again, being able to move an axe around an axis that's not running through the center of gravity proves nothing--all you've done is overcome the forces that were resisting you doing such a thing...

Actually, I disproved the following two claims that you made:
...the red line. That's where all the rotation takes place..
and
...the amount of bit travel that occurs from any twisting of the axe will be the same.

Beyond this, I've demonstrated that "the forces that were resisting you doing such a thing" are relatively minor to insignificant.

 

[Woodcraft]

Ummmmmm
This ax does that and has most of the ax handle inside the line. Yet it is unbalanced and bit heavy.....lol.....

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Actually I didn't say that 100% of the rotation would take place along the red line. That's just where it's naturally going to want to happen. Because we're dealing with competing forces there'll be a certain amount of back-and-forth struggle between the red and green lines, but the red line will be where the axe naturally wants to rotate and will put up the least amount of resistance to doing so.

I never once claimed that the amount of bit travel that occurs from any twisting of the axe would be the same. Not sure where you got that from.

 

[Woodcraft]

It looks like as this ax, and it's eye was made, on the straight handed the "blue line" to fall right down what I am guessing is the center of balance of the head.
.
On the new handle it looks like you actually moved that point closer to where the "poll" side. Making the ax in fact MORE bit heavy if we go by your "science".
The line seems to run through the same spot. But the pictures are taken at drastically different angles. You can see how if you were to "walk around to the same angle" the string would be closer to the "poll" than it appears.

 

[Steve Tall]

Actually I didn't say that 100% of the rotation would take place along the red line. That's just where it's naturally going to want to happen. Because we're dealing with competing forces there'll be a certain amount of back-and-forth struggle between the red and green lines, but the red line will be where the axe naturally wants to rotate and will put up the least amount of resistance to doing so.

I never once claimed that the amount of bit travel that occurs from any twisting of the axe would be the same. Not sure where you got that from.

You didn't say "100%" but you did say "all".

And the part about "any twisting of the axe" is a direct quote from your earlier post about the double bit vs. single bit example.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

And the part about "any twisting of the axe" is a direct quote from your earlier post about the double bit vs. single bit example.

It's kind of not, though. I said that an axe with an 8" bit can be outfitted with a handle such that any rotation from the main grippable length of the handle will produce the same amount of bit travel as a 4" double bit. That's different.

 

[Woodcraft]

1.You also said the Council Dayton Velvitcut balanced outside the handle on a plumb line.
2.And that the Council Classic Jersey had perfect balance.
3.As well as that your new handle "balanced" that ax.
4.You claimed that on "most" American axes the plumb line will fall in front of the handle and eye.
5. You claimed to have hung American felling axes from plumb lines and posted photographs.



1.Prove it, lol.
2.Nope, absolutely false claim. (Proven incorrect)
3. Nope again. (All evidence for your claim can be reproduced with an ax known and accepted to be bit heavy and unbalanced.)
4.I have shown what I feel are the most common American felling axe patterns in a couple different weights and posted the pictures, as well as boys axes and a Hudson Bay(the Hudson Bay is not an American felling ax but it actually had the plumb line fall where you claimed and it is a bit heavy ax on a 24" handle), and not one American felling ax has supported your claim. (Perhaps you should provide some evidence)
5. I have only seen one, the Council. If this is true you could post them.


This is important because the very beginning of your original paper begins with claims about American axe balance and what they could benefit from. I do not think you actually did the research. I think you were just making claims, unsupported. I think you still are.

 

[Steve Tall]

It's kind of not, though. I said that an axe with an 8" bit can be outfitted with a handle such that any rotation from the main grippable length of the handle will produce the same amount of bit travel as a 4" double bit. That's different.

The words "any" and "all" will normally jump out at me when I read some claims.
For the record, I quoted you saying:

"If you have a bit that measures 8" to the eye but only 4" to the axle, the amount of bit travel that occurs from any twisting of the axe will be the same as on a double bitted axe with 4" deep bits."

There was no mention of handle, let alone "main grippable length". The 4" from bit to axle was taken to mean that the center of gravity is 4" from the bit.

I'll chalk it up to "needed more clarification" (the "any" part), and perhaps some inadvertent exaggeration (the "all" part), instead of being evidence that the theory is unsound.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yeah the presumption is with an offset neck handle that puts both hands along the natural axle. In such a case, if the bit is 8" deep or 6" deep or somehow an absurd 12" deep it doesn't matter, because it's really the distance of the bit from the axle that matters in that case. The rest of the bit is trailing that point and lays on the other side of the pivot.