A first look at the Natchez Bowie

[harm]

I'm no knifemaker but am a user, and have hard used a Laredo with no problems whatsoever. When you show me a Laredo or Natches whose handle has been broken under normal hard you use, then I might be concerned. Until then it's much ado about nothing.

thanks Mike:thumbup:.now that's the proof of the pudding.
if u dont mind me asking,what sort of use did u put the Laredo through?

 

[steelscout30]

This is a very nice-looking design. If they made one in D2, 52100, or 1095, I'd lay down the cash in a split second.

 

[vikingblade]

Chasden... heres one of your Natchez pics I touched up a bit. Thought you and others might like. It is currently my Desktop background

 

[chasden]

Nice. Yeah, I just don't get tired of looking at it. So I'm guessing you're thinking about getting one?

 

[the possum]

I am leery of this welded-cable-on-a-stub-tang construction in the first place. I remain skeptical. (Actually that's putting it very mildly.) So I'm admitting my bias up front here.

When you show me a Laredo or Natches whose handle has been broken under normal hard you use, then I might be concerned. Until then it's much ado about nothing.

There was a report of a Laredo's handle coming loose some time ago. (I think the poster was Argyle ??)

...Natchez has a tang that looks beefier. But the blade is too heavy for this type of assembly. My pal owns both, and is into knife fighting so did a whole lot of movements with the Natchez, no impacts or cutting. After a few days the handle was making a strange "pinging" sound.

I don't know harm or his friend, but when I expect something like this to happen, and then someone reports it does, it just reinforces my preconcieved notions.

There is one very large difference between the Laredo and Natchez in regards to the tang. The Natchez has a substantial pommel. This is why I asked for the dynamic balance point earlier. (the forward pivot point corresponding to the crossguard or just behind it.) Depending on how the pivot points are placed, an impact out on the blade may place very little stress on the tang. Or,... it may place a huge amount of stress on the tang. And since that cable will just flex, you're basically depending on the handle material to take all that strain. I don't know whether micarta is up to the task or not, but I'm certain a wooden grip would be splintered within the first few serious tip cuts (again, depending on the pivot points). Without a pommel, as on the Laredo, this becomes much less of an issue.

 

[Ebbtide]

The cable secures the butt cap.
That's it.

 

[G. Scott H.]

The cable secures the butt cap.
That's it.

Assuming the handle is epoxied to the stub of tang, rather than being held on by the cable and nut (or whatever), that still leaves half the grip without any real internal support doesn't it? I see CS is still not radiusing their shoulder/tang transitions either. I'm definitely not a CS hater, but things like this make me shake my head. Their western sword tangs are another example. The hand-and-a-half sword, for instance, has a wide, beautiful tang that goes all the way to the pommel, but then they have a (roughly) 1" long piece of 3/16" diameter threaded rod welded onto the end, onto which the pommel screws. Basically, you have the entire hilt relying on that wimpy piece of rod to hold it together, since the rest of the components are compression fit. As the other guy said, failures on those are not uncommon on the sword forums. I really have to question what Lynn & the guys are thinking sometimes...:thumbdn:

 

[dante]

The NB is geared towards recreating a "martial" blade instead of a camping chopping, still I would be happier with a FULL tang considering the street price. So is the Laredo is the same construction?

 

[G. Scott H.]

Aw, crap...I just realized I was looking at the x-rays wrong. The Laredo is the one with the cable and nut setup, and the Natchez is the one with the beefier-looking tang (still looks like threaded rod though).

Good thing I'm not a doctor, eh?

 

[Return of the J.D.]

Assuming the handle is epoxied to the stub of tang, rather than being held on by the cable and nut (or whatever), that still leaves half the grip without any real internal support doesn't it? I see CS is still not radiusing their shoulder/tang transitions either. I'm definitely not a CS hater, but things like this make me shake my head. Their western sword tangs are another example. The hand-and-a-half sword, for instance, has a wide, beautiful tang that goes all the way to the pommel, but then they have a (roughly) 1" long piece of 3/16" diameter threaded rod welded onto the end, onto which the pommel screws. Basically, you have the entire hilt relying on that wimpy piece of rod to hold it together, since the rest of the components are compression fit. As the other guy said, failures on those are not uncommon on the sword forums. I really have to question what Lynn & the guys are thinking sometimes...:thumbdn:

Sounds kind of like the Ontario FF6 Freedom Fighter. It's got solid steel all the way through the handle, but it's configured like this: handle is basically a thick tube of Kraton. The blade narrows to a tang maybe 1/2 inch wide to fit through the steel guard, and then--maybe 1/2 way or 2/3 of the way back toward the pommel--the tang narrows from 1/2 inch to a thin (maybe 1/4 inch or less) rounded rod. That rounded rod is threaded. The pommel is then screwed onto the threaded-rounded-rod part of the tang. (The pommel looks kind of like a steel mushroom with a threaded hole in the bottom of the stem. This threaded hole is what the threaded portion of the tang screws into.)

I had the experience of the tang failing on one of these Ontario knives a few years back--was doing pell drills a la Dwight McLemore on a softwood log, and suddenly--right after a rather light snap cut--I felt the knife lighten and heard a piece of steel hitting the ground a few yards away. I expected to find the blade broken, but soon discovered that the mushroom-shaped pommel had flown off, apparently with a broken-off piece of threaded tang still screwed into it.

I have to say that I have very little confidence in such construction. The threads will probably create stress risers, as may the junction formed by screwing the narrow, threaded part of the tang into the much-fatter "mushroom-stem" of the pommel. You could see that all the force was just going to get concentrated on that tiny piece of threaded tang, the way the knife was designed.

By way of full disclosure, I had belt-sanded some of the Kraton off of the sides of the handle, and had also narrowed the pommel a little bit, side to side, just to make the whole thing thinner. I have trouble believing that the steel was depending on the Kraton for strength, however, enough that it wouldn't have broken soon anyway, without the narrowing I'd done.

 

[Ebbtide]

Assuming the handle is epoxied to the stub of tang, rather than being held on by the cable and nut (or whatever), that still leaves half the grip without any real internal support doesn't it?

If there was no epoxy & the cable/buttcap were holding the handle on, how would you make the cable tight enough to keep it all together?

Not looking to be contrary, but I've seen that construction type in Blade® (Goddard's column?) touted as one of the more common handle types.
One could also pin the but cap on from behind.
Or just leave a blind hole.

If the handle material is rigid, like micarta won't it support the rest of the epoxied tang?

Stick tangs, partial tangs have been around for a long time.

I do believe all bets are off once one gets into "rubber" or soft/flexible handle materials that don't support the stick or partial tang.

 

[G. Scott H.]

I agree, and I have not used a Laredo or a Natchez, so I'll leave it to those who have to discuss their actual structural integrity under real-world use. I was just saying that even with the grip epoxied to the stub, having the last half of the grip unsupported by actual steel (i.e., a full tang) seems questionable to me, considering the size of the knife. Even if both knives were designed as fighters rather than choppers, the construction still seems underwhelming. I guess I'm just wondering why they didn't pony up and go with more robust tangs. A half tang or a skinny tang on a $10 Mora that weighs close to nothing and will only see light utility use is perfectly fine, but it strikes me as amazingly cheap on knives of this size and price.

J.D., you're right. That's the same sort of failure seen on many CS H&H swords. A person is happily cutting away at water bottles or tatami mats when all of a sudden the hilt loosens, revealing a broken rod, or the pommel just drops right off. :barf:

 

[crossada]

i came across this video on youtube and thought it would give a better idea of the natchez in hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgf3R69f20

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I'm not a Cold Steel hater, I currently have 17 of their blades and will eventually get more. I don't trust these tangs, however. They are much thinner than CS's typical stick tangs.

The strange thing is that Lynn Thompson was one of the big advocates of the full tang/full-length stick tang.

I don't see how these strange tangs make the balance better, my Livesay Sandbar Bowie has excellent balance and feels very light, even though it has a full exposed tang. IITC the Ontario Bagwell Bowies also have full exposed tangs, and the ones I've handled had good balance.

 

[Bors]

I'm not a Cold Steel hater, I currently have 17 of their blades and will eventually get more. I don't trust these tangs, however. They are much thinner than CS's typical stick tangs.

The strange thing is that Lynn Thompson was one of the big advocates of the full tang/full-length stick tang.

I don't see how these strange tangs make the balance better, my Livesay Sandbar Bowie has excellent balance and feels very light, even though it has a full exposed tang. IITC the Ontario Bagwell Bowies also have full exposed tangs, and the ones I've handled had good balance.

It doesn't.....it's more marketing smoke. I think it's more to do with the cost of manufacturing it. I also think that he knows that most of the people who buy these will never use them for anything. Any use that they do see will most likely be light duty.

I'm also not a Cold steel hater. But I do think their standards have dropped over the years. There Tantos are still among the best out there and they have a full tang with just a very short rod welded in the end to screw the pommel on.



I'm not blinded by all of LTs smoke and mirrors marketing and given the handle and pommel issues that are popping up with there swords I think I will pass on it for now which is to bad because It really is a beautiful knife.

 

[Buffalohump]

Just seen this post now. First off to the OP - congrats on your new knife, she's a beaut! Also, the sheath has a frog on it, which means it is intended to be carried thrust into the belt. The frog is there to prevent it slipping out.

Second, I don't see this as being a working knife. Get the Trailmaster if you want that. This is a pure fighter, so I don't know if the tang issue is all that much to get worked up about.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

Maybe the tang is strong enough for a fight, maybe not. We won't know until many of them get used in fights.

What is true though is that the design if far weaker than it could be, and there is no reason for it. The Ontario Bagwell Bowies and the Newt Livesay Sandbar Bowie have full exposed tangs, far larger than a full-length stick tang, and they have excellent balance. A stick tang is one thing, but a half-length stick tang that is held on by a wire is even weaker than a stick tang. The strange tang won't make the knife significantly lighter nor would it make it cost much less, so the entire isssue is very strange, especially from a company that made a big deal about making knives with full-length tangs back when most knife companies did not talk much about tangs.

 

[Buffalohump]

No doubt I would think twice before outlaying that amount of cash for a new one. I believe you can do better for the dough. However, it has been my experience that CS blades can be found for very good prices on the secondary market, and that they make for inordinately fun purchases. Out of all my knives, my Trailmaster undoubtedly gives me the biggest thrill every time I play with it. There's just something about a big bowie I guess....

 

[Cobalt]

harm was able to supply the scans from the x-rays he took of the Natchez and Laredo. I'd like to hear from the knifemakers out there their opinion.

I see CS is still not radiusing their shoulder/tang transitions either. I'm definitely not a CS hater, but things like this make me shake my head. Their western sword tangs are another example.

I have no love and no hate for CS, and I have owned easily 15-20 large CS knives including many TM's, RS's, SRK's, Recon Tanto's, you get the picture.

The knife is meant to be a fighting knife and as such is probably stout enough for the one knife fight you may end up having in your lifetime if you can't settle it with your gun or 911 and you just happen to be wearing a 17 inch knife on your belt.

the knife is not meant as a hard use knife, of that there is no doubt. It may have a thick blade, but the weak point is the handle. Stick Tangs are not conducive to tough knives, then to not radius the transition just invites stress risers that will cause the knife to fail should some bloke attempt to use it for chopping, which it is clearly not meant to do. Do to this any decent steel would suffice for the blade as a tough steel is not needed.

The reason for the unsharpenned clip is because CS is a California Company and they have strict laws on double edged knives as does MD and Mass I think.

I will say CS knives are some of the sharpest knives I have ever owned. They know how to put an edge on a knife.

 

[Cyril Statum]

This is my first CS in many a year. I was taken by the blade design. Mine balances 7/8" in front of the guard. Consequently, the Natchez is very fast for a large fighting Bowie. As a Texan, I have always have regarded Bowies as fighting knives; definitely not a camp knife. If I need to chop, I use an axe anyway.

Fighting Bowies are man killers. It's ironic that here in Texas, it is unlawful to carry a Bowie. Hell, I don't live far from Jim Bowie High School and the Alamo is about an hour South.

On the tang construction. I have a antique British light calvary sabre with very similar tang construction with a wooden grip and it survived dozens of full pitched battles; and it's still quite functional and can cut the hell out of tatami mats just as the Natchez can. The primary edge is killer sharp and easy pops hair. I have a buddy with big hairy arms. I told him to watch it. He ended up eith an 1 1/2" swath that ran about 4 " It holds its edge just fine and is hell on manilla rope. I've not needed to touch up the edge.

My Natchez has a semi sharp clip that will power through milk bottles filled with water. The bolt in the tang can be tightened with a spanner. SO far is it solid as the proverbial rock. I have absolute zero concern about the tang.

Someone was wondering how tough macarta is. Well, since it is comprised of hundreds of layers of epoxy soaked linen; it's about as tough as it gets. It's super hard to work and super hard to break. I would figure that any torque or concussion from blade contact with dense objects would cause no discernible wear or damage.

Out on the ranch, I used the hilt to hammer a few nails and staples into fence post with no problems. I wouldn't normally use it like that but I didn't have a hammer with me.

Every guy that stops by my house sees it over on this table with some percussion revolvers, and without fail, everyone of them goes over to that table picks up Natchez and says damn!

When I have a little time, I will sharpen the clip. As it is, it would spoil anybody's day with a back cut.

I am keeping mine cause it's fast and honest and I just like it