A.G. Russell's Regard (or Lack Thereof) For Cold Steel

[338375]

Sorry, I can't agree with you at all on this. I'm neither young nor a "mall ninja," and I love watching all of the Cold Steel videos. For one thing, they're fun. For another, it's amazing to see the performance Cold Steel is wringing out of its products. And, most importantly to me, they instill in me a degree of confidence that my Cold Steel knives won't fail me should I ever genuinely need to push them beyond what I would normally ask of a knife. And I think THAT is what Lynn Thompson has always sought to promote by producing them.
-Steve

Nothing wrong with disagreeing. I don't like most of their videos, but I do like some of their products. I have had zero issues with any of the CS products I have owned, and have no doubt they will hold up to anything one can reasonably ask of a knife. There are some of their folders that I will never own because they remind more of fantasy knives than practical use knives because of their design and size, but there are a lot of people that do like them, and they sell very well...It's just personal preference. I do think that CS offers a great product at a very fair price, Especially now that they have implemented upgraded blade steel..
I did watch the video comparing the AUS-8 and CTS-XHP cutting rope.It did a good job of getting the point across without the comedic factor.

I seem to recall at the time that Dan told me that Carbon V was a 1095 variant. I could be mistaken though.........it was almost 30 years ago. .

I had heard the same thing Steven, and have always associated Carbon V with 1095

 

[The Whip]

My apologies, I misread your post. I was referring to the originals. I do not know about the Recon.

Steven, just to clarify for my own personal edification and the sake of completeness for a Tanto history being maintained over on the Cold Steel Forums: Are you saying that the earliest tang-stamped (as opposed to simply printed) Tantos with polished guards/pommels and no country-of-origin identifier on the reverse were manufactured by Buck?

I appreciate your historical input to this thread, by the way.

-Steve

 

[Steven65]

Steven, just to clarify for my own personal edification and the sake of completeness for a Tanto history being maintained over on the Cold Steel Forums: Are you saying that the earliest tang-stamped (as opposed to simply printed) Tantos with polished guards/pommels and no country-of-origin identifier on the reverse were manufactured by Buck?

I appreciate your historical input to this thread, by the way.

-Steve

The story I was told was from someone very close to L.T. in the 80's.
He said that the original Tanto was made by Buck.
Due to a conflict (which I will not go into) Buck stopped production very immediately and suddenly. It was after this that CS transferred production to Japan.

I am not a CS historian, nor do I collect them, nor do I have any special knowledge of the Tanto, it's tang stamps or variants of the Tanto. I have also never worked for CS.

I can just repeat what was told to me by someone whom I trusted and I knew had the inside story. This person did a lot of design, R&D and consulting for CS. Unfortunately he is no longer with us. It was through him that I met Dan Maragni when he was working on the Trailmaster.

True, untrue? Folks can make up their own minds........

 

[The Whip]

The story I was told was from someone very close to L.T. in the 80's.
He said that the original Tanto was made by Buck.
Due to a conflict (which I will not go into) Buck stopped production very immediately and suddenly. It was after this that CS transferred production to Japan.

I am not a CS historian, nor do I collect them, nor do I have any special knowledge of the Tanto, it's tang stamps or variants of the Tanto. I have also never worked for CS.

I can just repeat what was told to me by someone whom I trusted and I knew had the inside story. This person did a lot of design, R&D and consulting for CS. Unfortunately he is no longer with us. It was through him that I met Dan Maragni when he was working on the Trailmaster.

True, untrue? Folks can make up their own minds........

That's good enough for me. It's solid, sound information that I didn't have any inkling about until this week! Thanks, Steven.

-Steve

 

[Steven65]

That's good enough for me. It's solid, sound information that I didn't have any inkling about until this week! Thanks, Steven.

-Steve

Steve what you must remember about all this is the context in which it all happened.

This was the 80's in LA. Things were tough and there was no internet or "Google Search" to help you. Everything happened or occurred because someone actually got off their butt, went out and made it happen.
Lynn Thompson was a perfect example of this "can do" attitude.

When he decided to make the Tanto very few "production" avenues were available to him. Almost all tactical/combat knives of the time were daggers (Kershaw, Gerber) or were old classic designs (Randall, Ek, Kabar etc) made by the big factories.
I stand to be corrected but to my knowledge only Gerber were having folding knives made in Japan at that time. (Spyderco was as well but they were a very small operation)
It was not like today where the US has a number of small high quality production facilities or you can just Google "making a production knife in Japan". In those days going to the big factories was really the only option.

In those years most knives were still sold through brick and mortar stores. There were mail order choices (like AG Russell) but they were few and far between and mostly they were selling classic/traditional stuff.
L.T. with Cold Steel pioneered many of the marketing and business models used today in the modern cutlery industry. He turned modern production knife design and marketing on it's head and in so doing was really one of the fathers of the modern tactical production knife industry.

Like him or hate him, L.T. was a pioneer and a groundbreaker in our little world.

 

[KenHash]

That's good enough for me. It's solid, sound information that I didn't have any inkling about until this week! Thanks, Steven.

-Steve

As Steve65 above correctly points out, it was a different world back then. I remember looking at the CS Tanto in SMKW catalog and thinking $100 was too much. The story that Buck made the first CS Tanto has been around. It may be true or might not, but if both parties ended the relationship on not-so-good terms no principals are going to be talking about
it. And there was no internet back then, and even knife magazines wouldn't have covered such "gossip".
John Lauffer over at the Cold Steel forums did what is probably the best historical tracking of the CS Tanto and although he verified that there were ones marked "made in Japan" as well as ones unmarked as to origin, no definitive evidence surfaced that they were definitely made in the USA much less by Buck. Again, not saying Buck didn't make them, they very well may have. But there are a lot of stories of the knife world out there so best take everything with a grain of salt.
LT did bring the "Tanto" style and term as well as the old Japanese lamination system he renamed "Sanmai" to the American knife buying public. Steve65 is right that LT's name is firmly etched into the history of the US and global knife industry.

Steven65 - The first Knives ordered by a US company in Japan were fixed blades for Edgemark owned by Gutmann. They started in the late 1960s when the cost of German production became too high. In the 1970s. Browning and Kershaw were having Hattori make both fixed and folders by the mid 1970s. Gerber signed with Sakai Cutlery in 1977 to make the Silver Light folder. It was such a big hit that Sakai officially changed their name to "Gerber Sakai" and exists today as "G.Sakai". This also when Al Mar, as a designer for Gerber first visited the Sakai factory in Seki. The relationship between them is history. G.Sakai also made and still does, folders for Spyderco and SOG starting in the 1980s.
Regards
Ken
http://hattoricollector.com

 

[Steven65]

Steven65 - The first Knives ordered by a US company in Japan were fixed blades for Edgemark owned by Gutmann. They started in the late 1960s when the cost of German production became too high. In the 1970s. Browning and Kershaw were having Hattori make both fixed and folders by the mid 1970s. Gerber signed with Sakai Cutlery in 1977 to make the Silver Light folder. It was such a big hit that Sakai officially changed their name to "Gerber Sakai" and exists today as "G.Sakai". This also when Al Mar, as a designer for Gerber first visited the Sakai factory in Seki. The relationship between them is history. G.Sakai also made and still does, folders for Spyderco and SOG starting in the 1980s.
Regards
Ken
http://hattoricollector.com

Great info Ken. Thanks for sharing.

 

[338375]

As Steve65 above correctly points out, it was a different world back then. I remember looking at the CS Tanto in SMKW catalog and thinking $100 was too much. The story that Buck made the first CS Tanto has been around. It may be true or might not, but if both parties ended the relationship on not-so-good terms no principals are going to be talking about
it. And there was no internet back then, and even knife magazines wouldn't have covered such "gossip".
John Lauffer over at the Cold Steel forums did what is probably the best historical tracking of the CS Tanto and although he verified that there were ones marked "made in Japan" as well as ones unmarked as to origin, no definitive evidence surfaced that they were definitely made in the USA much less by Buck. Again, not saying Buck didn't make them, they very well may have. But there are a lot of stories of the knife world out there so best take everything with a grain of salt.
LT did bring the "Tanto" style and term as well as the old Japanese lamination system he renamed "Sanmai" to the American knife buying public. Steve65 is right that LT's name is firmly etched into the history of the US and global knife industry.

Steven65 - The first Knives ordered by a US company in Japan were fixed blades for Edgemark owned by Gutmann. They started in the late 1960s when the cost of German production became too high. In the 1970s. Browning and Kershaw were having Hattori make both fixed and folders by the mid 1970s. Gerber signed with Sakai Cutlery in 1977 to make the Silver Light folder. It was such a big hit that Sakai officially changed their name to "Gerber Sakai" and exists today as "G.Sakai". This also when Al Mar, as a designer for Gerber first visited the Sakai factory in Seki. The relationship between them is history. G.Sakai also made and still does, folders for Spyderco and SOG starting in the 1980s.
Regards
Ken
http://hattoricollector.com

That is great info Ken....

 

[WIL TERRY]

About five years ago I was sittting at the field pistol range at Whittington when Lynn Thompson walked by and says " you and I are the only hardcore gunners here, Terry." I looked around and ALL of the other folks had left for dinner in town [ I bring my own sandwiches and stay ALL day. ]. Lynn sat down and we gabbed about guns, shooting, and knives [ We've known each other a LONG time ] when I asked him if he'd seen A.G.'s new pocketknife the ACIES as I handed it to him. You'd have thought I was handling him a fresh warm dog turd !! He looked at me noting A.G. was not one of his favorite people. I did not know this and was flabbergasted that those two men, major domos in the cutlery industry, were not the best of friends. It still amazes me now ! There are big players in the gun industry where I worked for decades that are jerks but I still loved sitting and talking guns with ALL of 'em; ALL OF 'EM !!! Lynn is a cool guy and his wife, a GENUINE Yooper, is just a peach of a sweet gal.
And so it goes

 

[The Whip]

When he decided to make the Tanto very few "production" avenues were available to him. Almost all tactical/combat knives of the time were daggers (Kershaw, Gerber)

It was two such "combat" daggers broken in training that spurred him to build a better mousetrap--as you've so correctly pointed out, forever changing the landscape of the knife world.

L.T. with Cold Steel pioneered many of the marketing and business models used today in the modern cutlery industry. He turned modern production knife design and marketing on it's head and in so doing was really one of the fathers of the modern tactical production knife industry.

Like him or hate him, L.T. was a pioneer and a groundbreaker in our little world.

LT did bring the "Tanto" style and term as well as the old Japanese lamination system he renamed "Sanmai" to the American knife buying public. Steve65 is right that LT's name is firmly etched into the history of the US and global knife industry.

Yes, and let's not forget his introduction of the use of Kraton as a handle material, his pioneering work with Jeff Loffer in supplying Kydex sheaths with production knives, his creation of the "emergency rescue" category of knives...the list of Cold Steel firsts is quite long! I appreciate both of you gentlemen putting Lynn Thompson's accomplishments into some perspective for those in these forums who watch a video or read a thread or two and think they know what Cold Steel is all about. The post-1980 knife world has Cold Steel written all over it.

About five years ago I was sittting at the field pistol range at Whittington when Lynn Thompson walked by and says " you and I are the only hardcore gunners here, Terry." I looked around and ALL of the other folks had left for dinner in town [ I bring my own sandwiches and stay ALL day. ]. Lynn sat down and we gabbed about guns, shooting, and knives [ We've known each other a LONG time ] when I asked him if he'd seen A.G.'s new pocketknife the ACIES as I handed it to him. You'd have thought I was handling him a fresh warm dog turd !! He looked at me noting A.G. was not one of his favorite people. I did not know this and was flabbergasted that those two men, major domos in the cutlery industry, were not the best of friends. It still amazes me now ! There are big players in the gun industry where I worked for decades that are jerks but I still loved sitting and talking guns with ALL of 'em; ALL OF 'EM !!! Lynn is a cool guy and his wife, a GENUINE Yooper, is just a peach of a sweet gal.
And so it goes

Great story, Wil! I share your incredulity about the Russell/Thompson dust-up, which is why I found this thread worth sharing to begin with!

-Steve

 

[Kwon Kwang]

I'm disappointed with the pettiness from A.G. Russell in that advertisement. I also think it's pretty spineless to try and profit from something you clearly have a problem with if there's not an absolute necessity to do so. It is pretty old, however, so I wonder how seriously we should take it in 2015.

 

[H6GUN]

OK I'm new here and just have been a knife fan for years .When I was a kid I would run to the knife shop in our mall when my mother was looking at clothes Coldsteel videos where playing and I just knew I had to have one so some years passed and I finally had the chance to purchase one it was a magnum tanto II so I have had this knife for quite some time so I went up the road to AG Russell knives and asked about cold steel products the salesperson there told me that they didn't exactly get along said that cold steel tried to get their customer list so they could get AG Russell's customers needless to say I didn't get to look at any cold steel knives that day

 

[Steven65]

I'm disappointed with the pettiness from A.G. Russell in that advertisement. I also think it's pretty spineless to try and profit from something you clearly have a problem with if there's not an absolute necessity to do so. It is pretty old, however, so I wonder how seriously we should take it in 2015.

OK I'm new here and just have been a knife fan for years .When I was a kid I would run to the knife shop in our mall when my mother was looking at clothes Coldsteel videos where playing and I just knew I had to have one so some years passed and I finally had the chance to purchase one it was a magnum tanto II so I have had this knife for quite some time so I went up the road to AG Russell knives and asked about cold steel products the salesperson there told me that they didn't exactly get along said that cold steel tried to get their customer list so they could get AG Russell's customers needless to say I didn't get to look at any cold steel knives that day

Whatever happened to cause it is all is ancient history and it should be treated as such.

This should all be viewed in the context of the time. Rehashing 30 year old disputes does not benefit anyone.

 

[WIL TERRY]

Whatever happened to cause it is all is ancient history and it should be treated as such.

This should all be viewed in the context of the time. Rehashing 30 year old disputes does not benefit anyone.

THOSE who do not read nor understand history or ignore it are condemned to repeat it.
And so it goes...

 

[ursamajor]

Well, he did actually say they were good knives lol...
My guess is it was a personality clash. On the other hand, you gotta give A.G credit for taking a personal stand on a product, because he is in the business to make money,
but he obviously feels his convictions towards CS is worth more than increased revenue from the sale of their products...

I know the CS style of advertising works for a certain portion of the buyers( i.e young mall ninjas ), but is a turn off to those of us who are not.
LT laughs all the way to the bank every week though using the "test videos". I will admit I recently watched the new video comparing the old AUS-8 and the new CTS-XHP
folders. It was easier to watch than some of the other videos. It basically focused on the knives and cutting. No meatcycles

That said, I like some of their products, and have had zero issues with any of them.

Are you "put off" by Ford, Chevy and Dodge too?

 

[Kels73]

Sorry, I can't agree with you at all on this. I'm neither young nor a "mall ninja," and I love watching all of the Cold Steel videos. For one thing, they're fun. For another, it's amazing to see the performance Cold Steel is wringing out of its products. And, most importantly to me, they instill in me a degree of confidence that my Cold Steel knives won't fail me should I ever genuinely need to push them beyond what I would normally ask of a knife. And I think THAT is what Lynn Thompson has always sought to promote by producing them. -Steve

+1 for another guy who is neither young nor a "mall ninja." I think Cold Steel's videos highlight the capability of their knives, while also providing some enjoyable entertainment. I have no issues with that.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

+1 for another guy who is neither young nor a "mall ninja." I think Cold Steel's videos highlight the capability of their knives, while also providing some enjoyable entertainment. I have no issues with that.

Agreed with the both of yas!

 

[jazub]

I'm disappointed with the pettiness from A.G. Russell in that advertisement. I also think it's pretty spineless to try and profit from something you clearly have a problem with if there's not an absolute necessity to do so. It is pretty old, however, so I wonder how seriously we should take it in 2015.

Agree that A.G. trying to make money off of Cold Steel while badmouthing them is pretty chickenshit. Weak. :thumbdn:

 

[Halfneck]

Agree that A.G. trying to make money off of Cold Steel while badmouthing them is pretty chickenshit. Weak. :thumbdn:

Cold Steel did something similar with their ad copy for the G.I. Tanto.

It is what it is. A.G. Russell & Lynn Thompson don't get along. A.G. Russell is a distributor responding to the demands of his customers, same as Lynn Thompson. Adding some snarky commentary to the ad was just a way to get another jab in. Also don't forget in order for A.G. Russell to make money off of Cold Steel, Cold Steel made money off of A.G. Russell first.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

Cold Steel did something similar with their ad copy for the G.I. Tanto.

It is what it is. A.G. Russell & Lynn Thompson don't get along. A.G. Russell is a distributor responding to the demands of his customers, same as Lynn Thompson. Adding some snarky commentary to the ad was just a way to get another jab in. Also don't forget in order for A.G. Russell to make money off of Cold Steel, Cold Steel made money off of A.G. Russell first.

I consider the ad copy for the GI Tanto to be completely justified. Lynn Thompson never tried to use stolen valor to sell a knife. Regardless, I gotta agree with Steven...

Whatever happened to cause it is all is ancient history and it should be treated as such.

This should all be viewed in the context of the time. Rehashing 30 year old disputes does not benefit anyone.