A History Lesson

[JimmyJimenez]

I think if we are going to talk about illegal immigration we are going to need a new thread. Maybe Nordic Viking has a Swedish view of this as we were told that immigration, even legal, has become a problem there too. Norway has less of a problem because they tightly control immigration - so we tourists were told.

NEW THREAD?????

No new thread for me, bro.

I only have two ears, and they both need a lot of patching up now. Then there is the healing time, so I guess I'd have to sit out of any new threads that may cause such inhumane pain to my hearing senses............ LOL!

 

[JimmyJimenez]

You are technically right, but to most of us monolingual Americans all you people who live across the big North Atlantic and somewhere west of Russia, are Europeans by location. Even you Vikings and the French too.

Yes, Sir, I see it that way as well, and I'm one of those "bilingual" Americans

What if Germany were not part of the Union, or some other "EUROPEAN" nation were not let in?.......... Would that make them a non European country?................. NO, they would simply be European nations that were not a part of the European Union

Europe is Europe is Europe

Besides, Europe is a continent, so whether your nation is in a union or not, if your country happens to be on the European continent, then you are a European

PS.

Other related examples:

People living in the country of "Canada" = Canadians

People living in the country of "Mexico" (I believe fully named "Estados Unidos De Mexico") = Mexicans

People living in the country of "United States of America" = Americans

All people living in the above three examples = North Americans

 

[munk]

Steve Poll:

I do not mean export and import. I am asking what would happen if all the 300 million people in the US were dependant upon the resources which were here now, or that could be produced.

munk

 

[JimmyJimenez]

Steve Poll:

I do not mean export and import. I am asking what would happen if all the 300 million people in the US were dependant upon the resources which were here now, or that could be produced.

munk

Your talking Isolationism (spelling?).

We have always traded with others (though not to the extent that we do now), and isolated we have never been.

Even early on when we were only British Colonies, we did a lot of trading with the Europeans and even with our own Native American neighbors. This continued and grew to become today's current situation of mass importation. I do sometimes worry about us being so dependent upon foreign goods, but also realize that most of it is not that we can't produce these items, only that we want it for less cost and more profits. We produce a lot of raw goods and foods, and still export a lot of these raw goods and foods to other countries, but finished products are more and more being imported.
We are actually where a lot of the new ideas came from, and the knowhow is definitely here, has been here for a very long time. The single biggest thing that we are dependent on is crude oil. The majority of the items imported to us could be made here if the situation demanded it. A lot of it already was made here, but higher overhead costs here combined with real cheap costs abroad, forced them to become imports. Except for crude oil, (which we have, but not enough to fill our needs), we are probably one of the best set up countries insofar as renewable natural resources like grown planted food and livestock, and other items such as raw materials (metals, lumber, etc), water, Technology knowhow, and knowhow in general. If for some reason we were to be forced into isolation, we would have to seriously make drastic changes in our fuel consumption, but otherwise we could probably fair better than most if forced to do the same. It would hurt us for a while, since we would be left in total chaos at first, but once we got our bearings back, we would rebound,................... we are Americans!

I don't see this country isolating itself from the world. I feel it is perfectly fine to interact and trade with the rest of the world, it can mostly be a healthy thing. In no way do I want folks to believe that my call for closing off our borders to things like illegal immigration, drugs, other illegal contraband, and possible terrorists and their hardware, is in any way tied to wanting isolationism, they are two totally different issues.

Hope that clears up any misunderstandings

 

[kronckew]

...In any case, each one of the homeowners on the block has the right to invite to their property whoever they want. I feel this is how it should be handled with our own borders. You knock on my door, I either open and let you in, or I can tell you to go away.

works OK for normal people, but once you invite a vampire in, you can't keep it out afterwards.....i't just come in when it wants and suck you dry. you need appropriate additional defenses against the vampire, not the other nice people.

 

[Bladite]

Florida has a similar "No Retreat" law.
That and the "Castle Doctrine" are both good things.

as many a cop has told me... don't shoot them in the back, don't shoot them while they are laying on the ground face up (they can tell - so stand it up and back fill those holes), and make sure the body is INSIDE your door, not in the yard, not in the hallway, but firmly indoors. sounds silly, and it was said in a funny way, but they really were not kidding

bladite

 

[kronckew]

as many a cop has told me... don't shoot them in the back, don't shoot them while they are laying on the ground face up (they can tell - so stand it up and back fill those holes), and make sure the body is INSIDE your door, not in the yard, not in the hallway, but firmly indoors. sounds silly, and it was said in a funny way, but they really were not kidding

bladite

sound advice, there was an old lady in an apartment complex i lived in in texas, there had been a spate of b&e's of old ladies who were then raped and robbed. she heard someone breaking in, called the cops, & then shot him thru the door as it started to open. hit the perp in the thigh, he fell out into her porch. nice policeman showed up a few minutes later (woulda been too late if she had not been armed) kicked the perp in the leg, dragged him inside & told her that if there was a next time to make sure she drug him inside. kicked the perp again & said 'she shot you when you were inside, didn't she?' he stopped kicking him when he said yes. (perp, it turned out was not the rapist, just a burglar, not germain to the response tho.) we didn't have any more burglaries in our complex the rest of the time i lived there.

 

[Bladite]

Illegal immigration on the block for discussion too? You lads are brave indeed!

[*]I think immigration is a good thing, but I think immigrants should be documented and legal.

and follow the rules! we have quotas, just like every other country, and restrictions, things we want, and don't want. just try to apply for canada - the rules are online - they don't take anyone, and you have to speak french

[*]You've got the laws already to control this. They need enforcing - and whoever is benefiting from having the laws NOT enforced needs to be "outed.".

well, stop buying things from the likes of: mcdonalds, burger king, walmart, and so on and let them know WHY. report them to the proper authorities anytime you find a problem. do you work for a company that has lawncare/landscaping? perhaps at your apt/condo complex? make sure they're legal and refuse to do business with people that bend the laws. report them. in many areas, knowingly hiring a company to do work for you that you know is hiring illegals/day-workers will get YOU in trouble too - perfectly good reason to drop a given lawncare outfit for a good one...

[*]Illegal immigrants are filling a void in a demand/supply market for low cost labour. If the employers would stop hiring them, they'd stop coming. Unemployment they have back in their own countries ... that's why they left.

not just low cost, but pretty much benefit free too. the ultimate contractor. they have no rights, no benefits, they aren't taxed, they don't get taxed, or cause burdens for the guy hiring them, and they send all that money home too. not only are the jobs low cost, but they benefit the tax system/us not at all, which means we pay even more.

[*]The ways to affect markets are either to regulate them on the supply side (i.e. laws, border walls etc.) or to eliminate the demand for the product (cheap labour).

make using the product so expensive, it's not worth it. remove the laws that give benefits for companies to off shore their offices/etc as tax havens. give them domestic benefits for hiring americans and having plants here. prevent them from importing forgeign labor that would displace americans - many MANY countries have that. just try to work in another country. ain't easy.

[*]Consumers can most effectively change the demand side, by agreeing to pay more for the products cheap labour produces, or to wait longer for them to be made. Higher prices (e.g. for houses) will pay higher wages ... employing legal workers ... and still leave room for employer profit.

indeed, don't support anything that give illegals a benefit. shut them down, and they'll leave. they've said it themselves - when an area gets tough, they move on, or go home. they have no loyalty or reason to stay here in many cases except money and freebies. take them away, make it tough, and whammo.

how many americans are homeless? want to work, and can't? families and children go hungry every single day? die? you see these things on TV for unicef/all-that to support people in other countries for no other reason than feeling good - it's a worthy thing, truly, but we should start at home too. it's embarrassing that the usa in many ways is becoming a third world country.

But it seems to me that we can't have it both ways. We can have price savings from low-cost labour and pay a bunch of social costs here. Or we can pay higher prices and keep legal folks working here at home.

In a real way, the same thing has happened with the economics of manufacturing (now Chinese labour), and of IT development and support (India's labour). We're paying different social costs in those sectors - mostly job losses - but I don't blame an Indian IT worker for accepting a $45,000/year job for MicroSoft, even though it means that the $80,000/year worker who used to do that job in Seattle's now out of work.

well, as above, i can blame the hiring company, for cheaping out, and trying to make even more profit without "working for it", and the government for giving them discounts and benefits for hiring offshore.

some reading i've done suggests that many of those indians are taking the jobs to get the money to make their families better at home - excellent, but they hate every minute of hell while they are here - they HATE it. the climate here is not as like home a lot of the time, the food, well, it's not like home, and they are just about slaves. bugger. the guys that have to time shift 12 hours to man support centers "over there", hate it too, they are vampires, and their circadian rhythms are horked - they work long long hours and never see the day, or have real lives. that's progress.

Capitalism and free markets have some rough edges, even while they bring strong benefits.

a lot of people say we have to compete on the world market. this is true. the problem is, we're not competing, we're bending over, and way behind in many ways. our education system is ... failed. not failing, failed. we've offshored our best stuff, sold out the big factories and MUST rely on the foreign teat for our walmart plastic shite. a little more resonsibility and self-reliance would be good.

let's get our boys home from iraq, set them up every 50 feet along the border with a chair and a cooler and a 50mm cannon keep our borders safe.

bladite

 

[alberich]

A note on immigration - it's not bad, if the immigrant want's to became a citizen of the state where he moved. The bad - very bad - thing is if he just want his good old homeland with all the traditions etc. sponsored by somebody else. Like having a more comfortable Turkey in Wien or Ukraine in Prague.

I guess that if somebody want to live in a different country well why not but he must change to fit in, not the other way. However the people often see it the other way round. We don't have radical muslim tradicionalists here yet but some of our neighbors do and it seems to be a problem heading for a crisis... fast.

 

[JimmyJimenez]

works OK for normal people, but once you invite a vampire in, you can't keep it out afterwards.....i't just come in when it wants and suck you dry. you need appropriate additional defenses against the vampire, not the other nice people.

I feel that to be a bit too simplified for the real scenerio that we face here in America with "illegal" immigration.

But, if keeping things simple is what you want, simple is what you'll get............... .................

I place the terrorists and such as being, not the Vampires, but the "Devils".

The others that come through our borders, the ones with no permission at all to enter our country, the ones that have no legal documentation and no legal right to be here, these are the lesser "Vampires" (some very pesky bloodsuckers).

The "Devils" purposely enter to do their "evil" work, and that is truly their sole intention (these are our biggest concern).

The "Vampires" usually only come in to feed, but are nonetheless totally disrespecting us and our laws by not entering legally. This is a condition not accepted by "most" Americans.

They both are a problem, and taking the tough steps to prevent both Devils and Vampires from coming in, is the right thing to do.

The ones that come in with full permission and documentation, the "LEGAL" immigrants, are the ones I would consider as "the other nice people".


If you want the average American to consider placing the basic "illegal" immigrant, (the Vampires), into the "Legal" immigrant catagory (the "other nice people"), it ain't gonna happen,................. at least I surely hope it does not :thumbdn:


When they disrespected and broke the American law by entering our nation illegally, they only proved to us that they are truly no friends of ours.

Rationalize their behavior any way you like, but using my "home" owner example above, I don't think most folks would accept people coming into their homes without permission. Have the decency to knock and be asked in. If you get rejected, it is simply a part of life, but don't sneak in!

 

[JimmyJimenez]

A note on immigration - it's not bad, if the immigrant want's to became a citizen of the state where he moved. The bad - very bad - thing is if he just want his good old homeland with all the traditions etc. sponsored by somebody else. Like having a more comfortable Turkey in Wien or Ukraine in Prague.

I guess that if somebody want to live in a different country well why not but he must change to fit in, not the other way. However the people often see it the other way round. We don't have radical muslim tradicionalists here yet but some of our neighbors do and it seems to be a problem heading for a crisis... fast.

:thumbup:


Again, most Americans are not against "Legal" immigration, it's the "Illegal" immigration that irks us.

"Legal" immigration means paperwork, it means waiting in line. It also means that we may not be able to accept all that request entry, that we have certain limits.

But no, there are those that just feel that sneaking in, no matter what the law says, is okay!

Again, using the "home" owner example, you may accept to take in new occupants into your home, but you also have the right to deny entry to anyone, and to limit the number you let in if and when you choose to accept new occupants.

It's so simple, yet many simply have no clue!


There has been good discussion on this thread, but these issues are some of the ones I feel most passionate about, and they tend to get me too worked up. I will try my best to bow out from any further interaction on this stuff, gots to save my ears.................. LOL!

 

[TomFetter]

Jimmy, I appreciate that these issues are pretty "hot-button" ones for you, and for many. Thanks again to all participants for keeping this discussion civil, unlike many I've seen in other places on the 'net.

I can just hear Uncle Bill: "What's this got to do with khukuries? Everything."

 

[JimmyJimenez]

Jimmy, I appreciate that these issues are pretty "hot-button" ones for you, and for many. Thanks again to all participants for keeping this discussion civil, unlike many I've seen in other places on the 'net.

I can just hear Uncle Bill: "What's this got to do with khukuries? Everything."

You are a gentlemen, sir :thumbup:

 

[Nordic Viking]

I think if we are going to talk about illegal immigration we are going to need a new thread. Maybe Nordic Viking has a Swedish view of this as we were told that immigration, even legal, has become a problem there too. Norway has less of a problem because they tightly control immigration - so we tourists were told.

NEW THREAD?????

We don't have much of a problem with illegal immigraton because you can not realistically be hired / use any of the social amenties without being in the system (i.e. have an ID number). Beaureucracy has some advantages.

Our real problem is with refugees and legal immigrants who aren't given work because they cannot speak the language enough to practice the vocation they had in their previous countries. We have highly educated people like doctors and engineers cleaning offices and driving taxi's.

Then we have the worst kind of immigrant - the ex South African. They are extemely few and far between -they [DELETED] all the women, beat up the men and take all the jobs. Women, children and animals love them. There is only one in my city (they have a quota on these kinda folks).

 

[JimmyJimenez]

Then we have the worst kind of immigrant - the ex South African. They are extemely few and far between -they screw all the women, beat up the men and take all the jobs. Women, children and animals love them. There is only one in my city (they have a quota on these kinda folks).

Hey now!................. I always thought that the Swedish Nation produced big strapping fellas,.... you all need to start using those mus-skulls to start whooping some disrespectful butt............. LOL!

PS. I understood your point about why the Woman love them, but I'm a little afraid to ask why the children and animals do as well................... LOL!

 

[Nordic Viking]

PS. I understood your point about why the Woman love them, but I'm a little afraid to ask why the children and animals do as well................... LOL!

It's because they drive the fear of God into children and animals. They're tough, yet fair. .

My wife's ex-fiancé was a South African and I'm 100% sure he's the father of my two kids.

 

[TomFetter]

...My wife's ex-fiancé was a South African and I'm 100% sure he's the father of my two kids.

Were it me, I'd keep the kids and make the wife an ex.

 

[hdwrlover]

Well we have veered off the original post by Steve Poll.

Many issues discussed and no simple answers. Here's my simple take on illegal immigration. It should be curbed, and ultimately it won't be by physical walls around the U.S. border or by more police and military. Those people who want to work in the U.S. and come from Mexico illegally(they say about 57% of the illegals are Mexicans) often have to pay someone to get them across. Instead we should offer them working Visas(some of this is done now) after doing some preliminary checks that they are not felons, and then charge them for these Visas. Let's just say $1000. They would be issued a number similar to a Social Security number, and they must file a simplified tax return at the end of the year - both Federal and State. No tax paid, then Visa not renewed and they must return to their home country. Want back in? Pay another $1000/person for a new Visa after providing more proof they will not burden the system.

Something else that should be changed. Children of illegal immigrants born in the U.S. should not automatically become American citizens on birth if neither parent is here legally. In many other countries, that is true.

Many years ago I took a Doing Business with Mexico class. One night we had an eloquent lady who was a vice consul from the Mexican embassy in Los Angeles come to speak with us. The subject of illegal immigration into Mexico came up somehow and we were told how Mexico weeded out the Nicaraguans, Salvadoreans, etc. trying to sneak into their country. I brought up "AH Hah! and you complain about Americans trying to stop illegal immigration into the U.S." There was a silence, but then she said well, the job of the Mexican embassy was to protect the rights of Mexican citizens here in the U.S. - even if they were here illegally. We found out after class that she was married to our instructor and they met while he was in law school. It was an enlightening evening.

 

[Novadak]

My wife's ex-fiancé was a South African and I'm 100% sure he's the father of my two kids.

LOL!! I'm guessing he still lives in your house, too... what's up with that?

 

[Nordic Viking]

LOL!! I'm guessing he still lives in your house, too... what's up with that?

Yep, lives in the house + my wife cooks and does his washing too. I know she loves him, she says so quite often. The kids; they love him too. In fact, ever since they could speak, they've called him papa !