A little work with the beast.

Discussion in 'Axe, Tomahawk, & Hatchet Forum' started by FortyTwoBlades, Jan 11, 2016.

  1. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Taking out a dead standing pine with a Rinaldi 1300g "Trento" axe.

    [video=youtube;BCIsS8KV6nE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCIsS8KV6nE&feature=youtu.be[/video]

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    At a few points it may appear as though the bit is sticking, but that's just me giving the handle a lateral wiggle to loosen the chips. I only stuck it once early in the video wile still warming up, and it's noted. Otherwise the bit's tremendous width combined with matching the force of the blow to the intended cut kept it from ever over-penetrating. Regarding the final count for chopping time, the moments of me looking around and sizing things up are deducted from the total, so it represents the actual time spent in the act of chopping. :)
     
  2. Lieblad

    Lieblad

    Jul 24, 2015
    Wow !
    That is seriously cool design.
    Thanks for playing the part !
     
  3. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    It's a traditional northern Italian pattern. This one is the largest of the style that Rinaldi makes. Definitely a fun axe. :cool: :thumbup:
     
  4. Bigfattyt

    Bigfattyt Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 23, 2007
    Nice. The horns are enough to make it look like a Dan axe!
     
  5. Square_peg

    Square_peg Basic Member Basic Member

    Feb 1, 2012
    Cool video.

    I'm seeing a lot of sticking there which is what I'd expect from a thin-cheeked axe. Your personal axe skills are quite good. I'd step back a little sooner once it starts moving. Stuff happens.
     
  6. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Nay. Thine eyes deceive thee. :) See OP description:

     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  7. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    As a general rule with thin-bitted axes, if you're binding in the cut then you were using too strong a blow for the requirement of that cut. The whole point with a thin geometry is to let the bit do all the work and take "lazy" swings that keep you well within the aerobic range. Since your body is only able to generate so much force per swing, axe design is all about how to best apply that limited energy to the work. I know you know most, if not all, of the following principles, but it helps others follow along with the explanation that accompanies it.

    In chopping, energy is directed in two ways: penetration, and spreading force. The thinner the geometry, the easier it is to bite deep because less energy is being spent spreading the wood as the bit penetrates. However, because of the need for the wood to release the bit, over-penetration (like in the beginning of the clip) is a thing to avoid, and so the force needs to be mitigated to prevent it. Either you can diffuse the energy, or you can reduce the energy applied. The latter is easy--just don't swing it as hard--but the former can be accomplished either by thickening the geometry or by increasing the contact surface of the edge. This axe goes with a broad bit to spread out the force of the blow across the increased edge surface. While a thicker bit, with its greater wedging action, is able to pop a large plate, it also usually comes with a much narrower bit than this one, requiring multiple connected blows to cut a line across the face of the trunk. Instead of taking that approach, the "Trento" pattern mostly functions by taking deep, paring cuts, which is why I open with a small notch and then shave off chips to either side to increase it instead of cutting a linear notch like is so common with American axes. An alternative method of diffusing the force of the blow would be chopping a narrower notch, since you'd then be cutting across the grain by a greater degree, and less with it.
     
  8. Square_peg

    Square_peg Basic Member Basic Member

    Feb 1, 2012
    It sounds like you're making excuses for that axe. You have to hold back on your power or you'll bury the poor little thing hopelessly. Just too thin.
     
  9. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    ...No. No excuses at all. Did you understand what I wrote? Did you even read it?:confused: C'mon, man...I thought you knew me better than that. If there's one thing I don't do it's make excuses for stuff, even when it's stuff I really like.

    It's just a different prioritization of design features, and as a result it uses a different technique in use. I repeat: I only had the thing stick once, and it was due to a poorly placed blow while I was warming up at the beginning of the video. Other than that one time, the axe wasn't sticking--it was me deliberately leaving it in the cut for a brief moment while applying a little lateral wiggle to the handle, which helps pry up the ends of the severed wood fibers in the bottom of the notch. Then I withdraw it. If you want to project your own preconceptions onto it, that's fine, I guess, but it doesn't make them true.
     
  10. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Also the only reason why the off blow (which I labeled clearly in the video) stuck the way it did was because I was shooting for a deep paring cut off the top face of the notch, and so the resistance of the pared-off wood would have been low enough that the bit wouldn't have bound up at all. Instead I accidentally sunk it into interior bottom face, where there was a lot more resistance pinching back on the bit. That's where the modulation of force comes in during use--certain cuts will be more prone to causing binding than others, and you take that into consideration with how hard you swing. In terms of taking light swings, how in the world is that a bad thing? I find that keeping the level of exertion low keeps the work within the aerobic zone so I could easily swing all day, and the thinness of the bit is what allows it to still bite so deep without having to go ape on it. Efficiency of performance can be measured in different ways, and I find personally that while I can get through a treefaster with an American axe, I can get through the same sized tree easier with one of these thin axes and still make decent time. When you have other physical tasks to tackle during the rest of the day, that can be of significant advantage.
     
  11. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Here's the video I took last year of bucking a blowdown.

    [video=youtube;UdAcEaMOI4c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdAcEaMOI4c[/video]

    I took down a porcupine-stripped beech the other day, too, but wasn't able to get good video of it 'cause my battery died just a minute or two in. It does particularly well on beech (and presumably other hardwoods) because the risk of overpenetrating is so small thanks to the greater resistance, yet the bit is still able to sink deep for the kind of target wood.
     
  12. jgang

    jgang Gold Member Gold Member

    135
    Aug 8, 2010
    I like that ringing sound it makes in the first vid. That's quite the chopper....
     
  13. chuxwan

    chuxwan

    423
    Aug 26, 2012
    Nice chopping. These Rinaldi axes are so attractive, I really like that subtly curved handle, too.
     
  14. Square_peg

    Square_peg Basic Member Basic Member

    Feb 1, 2012
    That's better. Alright, you convinced me. It's a good chopper.
     
  15. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Thanks! They're lovely tools, and a joy to use. It's been a fun experience getting to know these Italian axes, and it's taught me a lot about the fundamentals of axe design in the process because of having to figure out what made them tick and the reasons for certain approaches to the designs vs ones we're more familiar with in the USA. One of the things I really appreciate about the Rinaldi axes, billhooks, and other tools is that they're clearly made to be used, and used hard, yet there's also certain details to them that shows pride in their work.

    The factory edges are unlike anything I've seen on other tools...usually factory edges are either brought to an edge that's intended as ready-to-use or else it's in a state that requires a lot of work from the buyer to get it ready to go, and with axes you usually find the former on boutique-level models and the latter on almost everything else. Rinaldi grinds all of their edges to a full apex and leaves the large burr on it. The result is that they're "nearly ready" sharp, and could still cut you easily/go to work out of the box, but benefit from at least a little deburring with a file or coarse stone before going on its first outing. The cheeks of the bits are ground to a near-zero before the convex of the edge, so there's almost no visible shoulder. The fact that they're willing to spend their time focusing on getting the grind of the bit nicely worked down like that is impressive to me, because I'm used to seeing manufacturers cheap out on the primary grinds on tools and spend more time fussing over the actual edge to make it look like it's ready to go, when the end user has a much easier time tuning up an edge than tuning up a grind!
     
  16. SamuraiDave

    SamuraiDave

    Apr 6, 2001
    That thing is awesome!
    Don't know what I'd do with it, but it's awesome!
     
  17. lucky57

    lucky57

    17
    Dec 31, 2012
    How much does one of those babys go for, Thanks Lucky
     
  18. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    They're available here. :)
     
  19. KRZ1971

    KRZ1971

    5
    Feb 13, 2016
    I have one of the 1100g Trento style axes from Falci, which if I understand correctly are made by Rinaldi. Put a short 20" handle on it and use it for hewing. Love it! Did get some very minor edge chipping, probably because I put to fine an edge on it. Used a slightly steeper angle, that should fix it. Also have a Milano style which is great for spoon and bowl work. Look forward to trying one of the American hand axes, and their bowl adze. Anyone used those items?
     
  20. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    I wouldn't consider the adze a bowl adze unless making fairly large bowls. It's more of a medium-small gutter adze and would do well making troughs and other large objects, as well as roughing out wooden forms. Obviously there'll be a perceived bias in my answers to questions because I sell the things, but I don't carry tools I don't genuinely love personally, and Rinaldi has become a very dear brand to me after putting many of their tools to work for my own purposes. The "American" pattern axes have a very deep, thin bit to them that allows them to cut a pretty deep, narrow notch without running the risk of the eye glancing off the mouth of the notch, and for it to take a low edge angle without interference from the width of the eye.
     

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