A lower bound for chopping, splitting and batoning

Cliff,

I disagree with your comment that somehow "softer" steel equates to "tougher" steel. Toughness depends on what type of steel it is, not necessarily on RC hardness.
Crucible Services A2 for example, is tougher ( Charpy notch test ) at both 60 and 55Rc ( both hardness levels coming at 41 ft lbs.). But in between those numbers there is a loss of toughness.

If softer were tougher, industry wouldn't be spending millions of $'s on sophisticated steels and heat treating processes for tool and dies, cutting equipment, molds etc. Using your assumption, one would think that "soft" 1095, 440 a,b,c, stainless etc. at a low hardness would be "tougher" than something like CPM 3V hardened to 58Rc. One would be hard pressed to prove this since CPM 3V, Infi, S7 etc. will blow the doors off most other steels in the toughness dept. and at a higher Rc hardness.
 
Cliff don't you know I come onto this site for entertainment? Too much thinking required with your posts. Now my brain hurts.:D
 
mtnsct said:
Toughness depends on what type of steel it is, not necessarily on RC hardness.
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It depends on both significantly. My point was not that softer=tougher without any other factors considered but that in this case specifically 420 is a much tougher steel than 154CM (carbide volume and carbon content in solution in austenite are much lower in 420), and since the 420 steel is underhardened (less carbon is put in the austenite) it makes it tougher still.

... that "soft" 1095, 440 a,b,c, stainless etc. at a low hardness would be "tougher" than something like CPM 3V hardened to 58Rc.
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Spring tempered 1095 is likely much tougher than 3V at 58 HRC. The carbide fraction of the 440 steels is so high though that if they were softened to increase toughness by underhardening, by the time that they have the ability to resist fracture strongly to compete with S7 they would likely be so soft as to be not practical for knives. Just consider for example the toughness of annealed (very soft) 440C. Try to break that by fracture, very tough.

Shotgun said:
Too much thinking required with your posts.
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Look at the picture of the zombie killing sword, it is an awesome weapon. It even has a big arrow cut into the blade to show you where the point goes in case you ever get confused in the fray. Now that is a knife maker who is always thinking.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I do not think this is that hard, first come up with a list of tasks that cover most of the work and then they can be represented by some kind of standard test. I would suggest something like :

1) chopping, thick woods, springy woods, grasses
2) slicing, heavy stock removal, shaping, barks
3) point work, delicate cutting, prying/digging
4) food preper, vegetables, meats
5) utility, various scavanged "survival" materials
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Yes, that wouldn't be difficult. I guess what I would like to see is a set of quantitative measurements rather than a set of qualitative comparisons. I can take any two knives, run them through a battery of tests and say X performs better than Y. But that's just a qualitative comparison.

But what I'd like to see is a set of standardized quantitative measurements. For example a measurement of how well something chops - so we'd have something we call a "Choppy" which is a measurement of the number of centimeters deep a cut is made in a standard material per standard number of chops given a standard force applied by the acceleration and mass of the blade moving through a standardized chopping arc. Then you could say Blade X measures at say 5 Choppies whereas Blade Y measures at only 2 Choppies. Then someone else could objectively determine if Blade Z is better than either Blade X or Y without ever having to obtain them for a qualitative comparison simply by determining the Choppy measurement of Blade Z.

I suppose there must be something out there like this in the materials testing industry but it hasn't filtered into the world of ordinary knife users.
 
akennedy73 said:
Yes, that wouldn't be difficult. I guess what I would like to see is a set of quantitative measurements rather than a set of qualitative comparisons.
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Of cuorse, but first let us agree on what would be a good base set of tasks to judge the performance of a knife, only then can you decide what quantitative work is useful.

-Cliff
 
Yeah, I think those are mainly for the Goblin underlings who do not get the high quality forged blades but have to settle for the stamped 420 stainless. I think this is why the Goblins carry so much resentment, even in those times no one respected the dreaded "surgical stainless".


-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Yeah, I think those are mainly for the Goblin underlings who do not get the high quality forged blades but have to settle for the stamped 420 stainless. I think this is why the Goblins carry so much resentment, even in those times no one respected the dreaded "surgical stainless".


-Cliff
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LOL:D (10 character requirement)
 
"some standardized way to grade a knife " is testing, whether for outdoor or indoor work.
 
SlamFire said:
And I wondered, "are these high Rockwell steels really appropriate for this type of work?".
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Generally not.


And I wonder why people are not using a tomahawk to split wood. I never heard of battoning until I got on this forum. I might try it with a khukuri, but I am not interested in using a good knife to do that.
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It is mainly a case of use what you have in this case. As noted in this case, it does not take much of a knife to do it. Even this very cheap fantasy blade handles it easily.

-Cliff
 
I think the high $$ knives are more charging for fit and finish , than a magic knife .

I have noticed that people who will buy high $$ knives and can drop makes names and quote specs and materials generally dont make their own blades or even sharpen their own knives . they *NEED* good fit n finish .

you reprofiled the sword edge to sharpen it , there is a lot of folk who cannot do that

I buy some dirt cheap knives that with some finishing , become awesome knives , but they are sold dirt cheap because they have no cutting edge to speak of when sold .

a guy who cannot sharpen a blade let alone reprofile one is not going to get a lot of value for their $$ if they bought one

but they will get what they are paying for if they buy a customs job .

this is how I see it anyway .
 
Myal said:
a guy who cannot sharpen a blade let alone reprofile one is not going to get a lot of value for their $$ if they bought one

but they will get what they are paying for if they buy a customs job .
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I think that is an interesting point, but you can have makers like Wilson or Krein regrind a knife, let alone sharpen it for a very low cost. If this becomes much more known or practiced would you expect it to influence those who buy custom knives for reasons you noted?

-Cliff
 
Maybe , but maybe not too

in the knife market , custom makers are a tiny segment compared to high end production knives , and the chinese stuff that floods the place

knives are a mystery to folk

people actually want it to stay that way too , something about magic and romance of the blade or something ...

IF ( big if , in capitals even ) you cold educate folk that knives can really be sharpened at all , and that cheap knives can be made into better using knives by a minor mod that costs not a lot ...

and it became very public that customs knives are maybe actually less abusable in some cases than cheapies re worked ...

its possible that folk would buy more cheapies and have them redone

but there is also that magic of the knife and romance of the blade and the fact tat it is inherent in people to want to spend money and feel good about what they get in return

to have a knife that took months to pay off or save for is really something , to have a equally good knife that cost $15 plus $10 for the regrind is not so much ...

kinda like buying a ferari , or an over blown fiat ....

or something like that , badge value alone sells the product way more than actual performance
 
Myal said:
but there is also that magic of the knife and romance of the blade and the fact tat it is inherent in people to want to spend money and feel good about what they get in return

to have a knife that took months to pay off or save for is really something , to have a equally good knife that cost $15 plus $10 for the regrind is not so much ...
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This is again a very important point, I would wonder how many people buy such knives or performance vs the other reasons you noted. It is certainly the case that many of the expensive knives are promoted on the basis of performance. How would this promotion be effected by the fact that a $25 knife with a similar cost regrind has better cutting ability and edge lifetime?

-Cliff
 
I wonder who would admit that they wanted a knife made by xyz maker with the glowing reputation more than they wanted a knife that will trim up concrete block tho?

I made a bunch of knives from a big power hacksaw blade , one I gave to a friend , he loved it and regularly showed off whittling shavings off thin sheet steel and then proving it would still shave his arm afterward , being a fridge mechanic , he does use it to cut cladding and steel strips regularly anyway .

the people he showed off to reacted interestingly , they often wanted a knife made by the bloke who made that one , not necessarily out of the same material , or that could do the same things , but just made by the same maker

I theorize that there is a far amount of this going on in knife circles , and that actual performance itself is less a factor than feel good , and to be honest , how a person feels about their knife has a lot to do with their trusting it or not .

how to quantify this tho , Ido not know where to begin .

OTOH , it could be that the majority of folk who do spend up and buy something special really do take it out and baton it , hammer it thru trees , chop falled logs put some real wear n tear on them

it just seems to me that the majority I see posted pics of show amazingly little signs of use , this could be from exceptional finishing of the knives , or from a reluctance to actually use hem .. I do not know .

I do like looking at the knives tho
 
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