A lower bound for chopping, splitting and batoning

[Cliff Stamp]

it just seems to me that the majority I see posted pics of show amazingly little signs of use , this could be from exceptional finishing of the knives , or from a reluctance to actually use hem .. I do not know .

It is lack of use, that I know because as soon as you use them it will show. Interesting comment you made about people wanting knives from the same maker vs the same performance, that says a lot. Of course there is branding in all things, not just knives. Is the knife industry any worse than the clothing industry in that respect, no. But is the knife industy any worse than the chisel or wrench industry - yes.

Truly begs the question what is the purpose of a knife? A label?, a name?, or the ability to take an edge and hold it?

There is a lot of status with knives discussed here, as clearly shown in the maker vs performance request Myal noted. All my knives perform very well, some of them are also very nice looking as makers like Wilson are concerned about aesthetics which tends to happen to all master craftsmen. But underneath all the visuals there has to be function or it really isn't a knife.

-Cliff

 

[shecky]

Great thread, Cliff.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Thanks, I am going to see if I can get a few more points here and see if we can not get at least a rough idea of low - medium - high performance.

-Cliff

 

[jdm61]

I have been wondering about the whole "batoning" thing. Is that really an efective test of a knife's cutting ability? You are splitting the wood with the grain. Thats like the old parlor trick of doing a Bruce Lee on a 1 x 12. Pretty much anyone can break on with the grain if it is held firmly enough. But try it the other way All you need to split wood is a thin enough wedge and enough force behind it.

 

[Cobalt]

I have been wondering about the whole "batoning" thing. Is that really an efective test of a knife's cutting ability? You are splitting the wood with the grain. Thats like the old parlor trick of doing a Bruce Lee on a 1 x 12. Pretty much anyone can break on with the grain if it is held firmly enough. But try it the other way All you need to split wood is a thin enough wedge and enough force behind it.

ya, your right, batoning really isn't that stressfull at all

 

[Elen]

ya, your right, batoning really isn't that stressfull at all

That looks to me like a classic example of unwise technique. First of all, batoning isn't something particularly brilliant to do: it can break knives, so in a real survival situation where you may not have ten knives and a chainsaw, doing something that you a) don't need to do and b) may lose your important tools doing, isn't necessarily a smart move. Secondly, the picture may distort things a bit, and if so, I may be wrong here, but it seems that in the picture, the knife has been batoned into the wood with the tip higher than the handle, creating a lever effect that directs considerable force against the small surface of the knife that has "first contact" with the wood. In this case, that's the area near the handle guard, and by some coincidence, that's exactly where the knife fell apart.

 

[jdm61]

I bet you could break an ax handle if you used the axe as a splitting wedge and hit the handle with a sledge hammer. What you have there is an example of bad heat treating. That tang should have bent over long before it snapped, especially with the silly putty handle material on that knife. Once it brioke, did you check to see if water had gotten under that rubber? But the real question is if you were stranded in the woods with only your Cold Steel bowie, why would you being looking to split 12 inch logs for your fire? Were you plannig to forge a new knife to replace the one than broke? I wouldn't even attempt to split that log with an axe if i has a splitting wedge and a sledge hammer in the area.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have been wondering about the whole "batoning" thing. Is that really an efective test of a knife's cutting ability?

No, in fact knives that cut well do not in general split well. It is moer of a durability check, but it isn't a really high one in general unless the steel is really brittle.

Secondly, the picture may distort things a bit, and if so, I may be wrong here, but it seems that in the picture, the knife has been batoned into the wood with the tip higher than the handle, creating a lever effect that directs considerable force against the small surface of the knife that has "first contact" with the wood.

The internal strain is not maximized when the tip is up, that notion was popularized on Knifeforums to rationalize some knives breaking but this is not the case. The strain will actually be at a maximum when the knife is horizontal. You can minimize the strain by not pressing down with the handle, but of course on hard to split wood the knife will just rotate then and not split anything. I would prefer to use wedges in that case.

I wouldn't even attempt to split that log with an axe if i has a splitting wedge and a sledge hammer in the area.

It looks like a solid piece of wood, I would have taken off a smaller piece, used it to make wedges and split the wood with that. There is way too much chance that a knife will just bind solid in a piece of wood that size, but with a bunch of small wedges you can usually break it apart. That may have been the only wood available, or it was simply an experiment in technique.

-Cliff

 

[Elen]

The internal strain is not maximized when the tip is up, that notion was popularized on Knifeforums to rationalize some knives breaking but this is not the case. The strain will actually be at a maximum when the knife is horizontal. You can minimize the strain by not pressing down with the handle, but of course on hard to split wood the knife will just rotate then and not split anything. I would prefer to use wedges in that case.

Well, the problem isn't the tip being being up. The problem is that one end of the knife is higher than the other - it would be much the same if it was the handle that was up and the tip down. If that doesn't increase strain, I sure would like to know why. Physics isn't my specialty, but common sense seems to say that if the knife is not level horizontally, then more force will be directed on a smaller area, and therefore the knife is more stressed. Anyone ever stepped on your toes with stiletto heels? Hurts a lot more than your regular boot, and it would seem to be the same situation in this batoning case, too.

 

[Cobalt]

I bet you could break an ax handle if you used the axe as a splitting wedge and hit the handle with a sledge hammer. What you have there is an example of bad heat treating. That tang should have bent over long before it snapped, especially with the silly putty handle material on that knife. Once it brioke, did you check to see if water had gotten under that rubber? But the real question is if you were stranded in the woods with only your Cold Steel bowie, why would you being looking to split 12 inch logs for your fire? Were you plannig to forge a new knife to replace the one than broke? I wouldn't even attempt to split that log with an axe if i has a splitting wedge and a sledge hammer in the area.

you are absolutely correct. It is bad HT. It was not my knife just one that someone posted a long time ago. The guy was obviously testing the blade. But his batoning of that large wood is not uncommon and he did it correctly by starting with small sices on the side. Still, I have heard of many knives breaking under batoning. And the Batons were wood or rubber, not metal.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... if the knife is not level horizontally..

When the knife is nor horizontal then part of the force is wasted acting along the knife rather than against it trying to rotate it. It is the component of the force which is trying to rotate it which causes the internal stress. This stress will be maximum around the pivot point which would for example be a large knot in the wood, so don't place that near the tang, put it out by the tip.

-Cliff

 

[SlamFire]

Message Deleted

 

[Myal]

Would a cheaper knife with a decent grind have done better ?

did the owner of the knife buy it for the quality , the badge/prestige factor or the performance of the knife ?

Im surprised that a lump of steel that size broke tho , really surprised

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In some places such wood is made available, otherwise you may be looking at stumps or large piece of deadfall, so similar situations may arise "for real". Generally it isn't like people approach a wood pile and look for a Recon Scout instead of a splitting maul, it is just a case of "make due", most of these blades are promoted as survival knives so it isn't the case they are for fine cutting only.

Ironically yes, most cheaper knives are made out of far tougher steels. For example the $10 Mora knives from 12C27M are MUCH tougher than $350 customs ground out of S30V. This is basically a L6 vs D2 type of comparison. In general, cheaper steels are much tougher and in fact tend to make better knives if you are looking for acute edges at a high sharpness. The high carbide steels essentially just allow knives to stay relatively blunt for longer.

-Cliff

 

[SlamFire]

Message Deleted

 

[Myal]

Mr Stamp: I stand in awe of your knowledge.

Personally, if it takes a belt grinder to put on a decent edge, I don't want it. I think a knife, at home, or in the field, the edge should be restorable with those little GI carborundum stones. Now once I get the thing home, I will put on a better edge with a bench stone.

.

I think this kind of sums up the reason for the cheapies not being a really popular thing much

No offence intended , Im kind of the same when I buy a knife

OTOH , I have no issue taking to a leaf spring or saw blade with a grinder if it "speaks" to me and tells stories of the blade in there waiting to come out

but the only knives I do serious re-profiling and sharpening on is other peoples usually . Before I part with money for a knife of my own Ill usualy make sure it is one that is good enough to go out of the box , not one that is basicly a poorly finished knife that needs work before its good to go .

 

[Cliff Stamp]

On the other hand, it may just be that it was a bad heat treat.

That is what I would assume.

Before I part with money for a knife of my own Ill usualy make sure it is one that is good enough to go out of the box , not one that is basicly a poorly finished knife that needs work before its good to go .

Personally, my own choices are now that highly customized that I tend to modify everything, but some only slightly.

-Cliff