A matter of the law

Legally, what length is this blade?

  • Under 3.5"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Exactly 3.5"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Over 3.5"

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
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geez...that guy must have a public defender..in that case a 2 1/4 inch blade is illegal..i think that case you were referring ended up a split decision..which is as it should!
 
I would call it over 3.5 since there is a little material outside the handle before the cutting edge begins. I don't think you would get much trouble over it, but if you want to be safe why not return it and have Tom make one just a hair smaller? (if you got it direct from Tom and if he makes custom lengths outside from the set sizes)
 
Does the statute specify how it is to be measured?

Are there any cases establishing a precedent?

You might want to ask AKTI, Bernard Levine or a local prosecutor what the case law is, otherwise it could be subject to local interpretation (ie a guess), which is never ideal.
 
Funny you should mention that. I do have a custom on order from Tom -- 3.4" clip-point recurve, so there's no question.

I just got a good deal on a trade for this hawkbill. Love TnT's, and love the blade shape, so I went for it.

Unfortunately it just doesn't look like it's going to work out for me. Which sucks, because TnT's are AWESOME!

Mike
 
Crap it seems like this would be a good time to have a couple of bucks on me. the knife of my dreams looks like it's gonna come up for sale soon:D oh well maybe when I hit the Lottery. awesome looking knife Mike why don't you send it to Tom and have him shave off the top a little. or you could get him to cut it at an angle and have a hawkbill/tanto. crap that would look cool.
 
Actually that's kinda how I got into the funky-sized recurve. I had a medium drop-point -- standard model TnT. Awesome, but kinda plain.

Sent it off to Tom to be transformed. Which is cool, but it (I hope he's not reading) takes a REALLY long time.

A big part of the reason I jumped on the hawkbill was so I wouldn't be without a TnT while I wait for mine to come back.

Poll is running something like:

20% - less than 3.5"
40% - 3.5" exactly
40% - Over 3.5"

Not exactly a landslide. It shouldn't be this difficult.

Mike
 
it is difficult because different people see things different..not many will take a bet whether it is 3 1/2 or 3 5/8...it is an 1/8 difference..the world won't stop on an 1/8th..but if you were comparing 3 to 3 1/2 or 3 1/2 to 3 3/4....some people say bolster to tip but the STANDARD in the knife industry and in the academies in the 3 states i have policed in is you measure cutting surface to get blade length for law purposes..a fixed blade is not measured from butt to tip, even though it is one piece in most cases..it is measured from cutting surface to tip..and again..these are SUPPOSED to be hand made..so a natural hair here and there is to be expected, i would think..
 
OK, I've done a little research, which hasn't really helped at all.

The Colorado Criminal code, Section 18-12-101, states that "(f) 'Knife' means any dagger, dirk, knife, or stiletto with a blade over three and one-half inches in length, or any other dangerous instrument capable of inflicting cutting, stabbing, or tearing wounds, but does not include a hunting or fishing knife carried for sports use. The issue that a knife is a hunting or fishing knife must be raised as an affirmative defense." Knife is so defined because the Code used to criminalize the carrying of a "knife," without any further definition, so apprently in the 70s the legislature decided to define "knife" so that people with SAKs wouldn't get tossed in jail.

OK, fine, but how do you measure blade length? Strangely there are no reported CO cases on this. There are 2 cases that are interesting, but not particularly helpful:

(1) People v. Pickett, 194 Colo. 178, 571 P.2d 1078 (Colo. 1977)
"Defendant further asserts that the knife as it related to Count III (carrying a concealed weapon), had a blade less than 31/2 inches long, as defined by section 18-12-101(1)(f), C.R.S.1973. The evidence was undisputed that the blade of the knife measured 31/2 inches in length from its tip to the point where it was hinged to the knife handle, and that the overall length of the blade was more than 31/2 inches. In our view, it was not therefore inappropriate for the trial court to rule as a matter of law that the knife in question was the type defined by the statute."

I have NO idea what the court is talking about here - the blade was 3.5" long when opened, but there was some blade still in the handle, so if you took the knife apart the "blade" would be longer? Without a pic or more information this is no help, & the court provides neither.

(2) A.P.E. v. People, 2001, 20 P.3d 1179.
Carrying concealed knife with blade less than three and one-half inches was not by itself violation of concealed weapons statute; rather, prosecution was required to show intent to use knife as weapon. (This is the challenge someone referred - see definition of knife above)
Here the court does a favor & provides a pic, but the actual blade length is unclear.

NOTE that, regardless of whatever state statute declares, local county or municipal governments can enact more stringent regulations. So if Coclrado ok's 3.5" but Denver limits it to 2.5", if you are busted in Denver with 3" you will face prosecution for violating a city or county ordinance.

Now to make myself really popular - when I used to prosecute these cases in my local courtroom, I would argue (and it only came up on a theoretical basis, we weren't nailing guys with SAKs) that blade length is determined by how far you can stick the blade into someone before you get the handle messy. I.e. tip to guard or beginning of handle. That's the rule of thumb I'd watch out for, it's common-sense, which carries a lot of weight with judges (sometimes). That said, the only people with knives that I ever prosecuted were rocket-scientists who decided to antagonize the police while carrying a knife, or known (and I mean KNOWN - they would show me their new scars with pride each time we met in court) gangbangers. Plus one kid who brought a 7" WWI trench knife to school (you know, the brass-knuckle dealy).

Basically, if you don't bug the coppers, they will let the extra 1/16" of blade that I think you've got there, slide on by. If you do bug the coppers, I don't think the results of this learned poll will help you much. ;)
 

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It looks like a touch of 3.5" to me. As an earlier post said, I measure from bolster to the tip. When it comes to blade length, I tend to take the longest measurement just to be safe.
 
well when youget yours back i'll trade you my whole collection for the hawkbill. I wouldn't want you to get stopped by the cops and locked up. I'm just looking out for you man!!!:D
 
I don't know. The cutting edge looks to be about 3 7/16" and the overall blade looks to be about 3 9/16". I do not know how the courts would look at this. They would have to be real a**holes to go after you for having a knife with a blade that close to the legal limit. That being said, you just never know what will happen when, or if you get to court.
 
If they measure actual cutting edge it may be closer to 3.75", I would call your local PD for an answer but I think an officer would have their own descretion to base the decision to confiscate on..

Hey, this is my 1000th post :D
 
A tiny bit under 3.5". I talked to my neighbor who is a cop and he said the same thing.
 
Michael -

Is any of the following true?

  • Local LE outnumbers citizens 2 to 1?
  • You are engaged in criminal activity that places you at above-average probability of being searched?
  • Do you conduct yourself in a manner that appears suspicious to the populace?

My point is, you may be worrying about this way too much. I mean, sure, if you come across a real hardnose who happens to notice that you have a pocketknife and is hell-bent on saving the world from evil edged tools, then you might have a problem. But I would be willing to bet that if none of the items in the above list are true, then it is highly unlikely that you are (a) going to be in a situation where you need to explain your knife to a LEO and (b) that LEO isn't going to give you a little slack on a knife that is clearly borderline.

For what it's worth, I call that knife 3.5".

Matthew
 
Legally, you are supposed to measure a knife from the pivot, which would make that kife about four inches. Then again, not many cops measure that way, so you should be fine.

Jeff
 
To requote fishface's quote of the legal precedent:

"The evidence was undisputed that the blade of the knife measured 3-1/2 inches in length from its tip to the point where it was hinged to the knife handle, and that the overall length of the blade was more than 3-1/2 inches."

To me that means that there is legal precedent in CO that the court can measure the blade from tip to the back of the (concealed) tang. That's going to add about one inch to the "stabbing depth" measurement (tip to handle) that is common in the industry and makes the most sense to me. In other words, outside of Colorado, your blade length is just over 3.5" (stabbing depth) and inside CO, it is about 4.5 inches. It is certainly possible that any given court could interpret blade-length with a more common-sense method, but an aggressive prosecutor will try to use any precedent that will be most dis-favorable to you.

Basically, you are screwed in CO if you conceal any of your knives unless you get something like a Spyderco Salsa (2.5" blade stabbing depth). Don't bother to get Mayo to shorten this blade by 1/8" because that won't really protect you.

However, you can carry these knives legally if they are unconcealed. I don't know if pocket clip carry is considered unconcealed in CO, but my guess is that it is probably ok to carry these knives that way.
 
I tell you this : In Connecticut you'd have no
problem as the "legal" cutting length is 4 inches or
under. But I have to say that the length on that
baby is just 3.5 inches, if we consider that the
sharpened portion of the blade does the cutting.
Not the ricasso or hilt. Just my 2 cents.

A.E.T.
 
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